Whose vision of transit in Toronto do you support?

[Rainforest]

I have to go with A. It seems to me that subway expansion just adds more traffic onto exisiting lines that are already grossly overcrowded at rush hour. What happens when subways go to Vaughan and the seats are all filled before the train hits Downsview?

We can't afford to build a subway network now, primarily due to exorbitant tunneling costs. For the price of one subway line, we can build many paralleling LRT lines. I also would like to see rail and hydro right of ways used for expanded rail transit of all types.

RG

The only practical answer to overcrowded subway lines is Downtown Relief subway. It is needed with either A or B, because LRT lines as in A will also bring more riders onto the core subway system.

For suburbs with their wide arterials, it is a valid debate whether we should build subway lines, or more km of street-median LRT lines for the same cost. But in the downtown core where the subway overcrowding takes place, there is no chance to build street-median LRT lines because the streets are not wide enough.

 

[kettal]

But then, they need very strong LRT signal priority at u-turn points. If LRT has to stop three times instead of one (at the west-to-east u-turn, at the intersection, and then at the east-to-west u-turn), it defeats the whole purpose of removing the left-turn phase from the main intersection. For the arrangement to work, LRT must get an almost guaranteed green at u-turns.

The theory goes that U-turn only signals are a very simple thing compared to full intersection traffic light cycles. That means it can go on and off at any time without all the other factors of a traffic light cycle. The u-turn green should only happen when there are no approaching LRTs in sight. Hopefully it is synchronized with a vehicle tracking system.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

The theory goes that U-turn only signals are a very simple thing compared to full intersection traffic light cycles. That means it can go on and off at any time without all the other factors of a traffic light cycle. The u-turn green should only happen when there are no approaching LRTs in sight. Hopefully it is synchronized with a vehicle tracking system.

And with what we've seen on Spadina (re. transit priority) one wonders if the proper logic will be implemented on the U-Turn light, i.e. U-Turn phase only activates when there are car(s) qued (sic?) up AND there are no LRT vehicles approaching the light. I have a feeling that the second part will be forgotton.

 

[gweed123]

I have to go with A. It seems to me that subway expansion just adds more traffic onto exisiting lines that are already grossly overcrowded at rush hour. What happens when subways go to Vaughan and the seats are all filled before the train hits Downsview?

We can't afford to build a subway network now, primarily due to exorbitant tunneling costs. For the price of one subway line, we can build many paralleling LRT lines. I also would like to see rail and hydro right of ways used for expanded rail transit of all types.

RG

Quite a common rebuttal against subways...

1) That's what the DRL is for. And if subways will crowd the existing subway network, what will a network of LRTs entirely north of Bloor do for it? Relieve it? Umm no.

2) DRL East (Eglinton to Spadina), B-D to STC, Sheppard subway to Agincourt, Eglinton crosstown LRT (grade-separated in the centre and west), LRT on Jane (from Eglinton to Steeles), a few BRTs, all for $15 billion. That's what the current SOS plan is. The idea of "we can't build subways anywhere because they're too expensive" is complete bogus. You pick the places where it's really needed, and you make the extra investment.

 

[GTS]

Joe Pantolone will be running for mayor. I am looking for the most transit friendly candidate as the MAIN issue in my decision for voting, I know it is not the only issue but Transit is the most important one for me in the last few years. I used to attend public TTC meeting at City Hall, when my schedule allowed and before my family grew, and Mr. Pantolone was at these TTC meetings as well. I will wait to hear what he has to say on this subject.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Scarberian

I really don't think it helps your case to call me 'amusingly ignorant'.

Anyway, I disagree about the "situation on the ground" as you call it. Mississauga Transit and GO have put a lot of resources into making Square One a major hub for local and regional transit service. An extension to Sherway or even Cooksville will likely not change the fact that a lot of service goes through Square One. The reason being that Square One is a major employment centre, with a growing residential population and planned transit-oriented developments. Yes, all those people who daily go through the Square One Terminal could just take a bus down to Cooksville, or Sherway (or Kipling). But whats the advantage to extending the subway to those points at all? Can't people from Sherway just take a bus to Kipling?

I haven't heard anyone say that an extension to Square One is needed, or even a realistic possibility at this point. I personally don't ever expect to see it happen. But if we can't manage to bring the subway all the way out to Cooksville, then up to Square One, then it might as well stay where it is now. The money needed to extend to Sherway could be better spent elsewhere, and that alignment might not be the best for continuing extensions to the west. Toronto's experience has shown pretty conclusively how much more development is spurred when subways run under streets.

Maybe I just don't understand the need to constantly expand our subway system toward the periphery. I can't imagine how an extension to Sherway will help Etobicoke or Mississauga more than an equivalent amount of money being put into GO improvements, Eglinton LRT grade separations, the Mississauga busway, Dundas LRT, etc. All of those should be higher priority than an extension to Sherway; a mall surrounded by parking lots, a ravine, light industry, a highway interchange, an unfriendly arterial, and single family homes. Explain to me why a subway needs to go here.

Didn't see this dingbat post till now but it warrants a response.

You're the one saying it should go to go to Square One. I'm the one saying Kipling is a terrible terminus, which it is, which is why the idea of extending the line keeps popping up. When a transit line comes to a crashing halt one stop away from a mall and a highway interchange laced with over a dozen overlapping bus routes and two stops away from an even bigger mall, it means the terminus location makes no sense. Kipling is not a natural travel breakpoint, or a convenient place to funnel buses, or the site of any concentration of people or jobs or stores or schools, or a fare boundary, or a municipal boundary, or on the edge of some geographic feature that makes extensions impractical; it's just the place where the money and the good planning ran out, and nothing more. If Bloor is ever extended, it needs to go to East Mall and it can stop there or go to Sherway. It could also have gone to the airport, but the 427 corridor, while intensely developed, is extremely difficult to serve with one transit line since it'd have to go in the middle of an existing highway. And, of course, a direct rail link to the airport from downtown is better.

Going past Sherway is pretty pointless, though it looks really cool on a fantasy map...such a long line! Sherway is nowhere near Square One...what's the advantage of going farther than Sherway and duplicating the GO line? To serve all those thousands of Cawthra-Christie trips? To give people a redundant way to get from Dixie GO station to Cooksville GO station? Because 'Mississauga deserves a subway'? There's more at Sherway then there ever will be at Kipling. Even a small mall like Cloverdale is worth a forest of condos in terms of trip generation.

First you say an extension like to Finch station was good planning because of the large parking lot, then you pooh-pooh an extension to Cloverdale or Sherway because they have parking lots – the latter of which is slowly filling in with condos, by the way. Amusing logic. What Toronto's experience has *conclusively* shown is that development only happens if allowed to happen. Has the land around Glencairn been rezoned? How many new towers does the city desire next to Chester? Look at Giraffe at Dundas West...rejected. Why on earth would extending Bloor to Cloverdale or Sherway affect Square One's status as a transit hub?

 

[SlickFranky]

I agree East Mall / Sherway makes more sense than Square One, but where would this extension rank on your list of proposed transit improvements? TTC has studied it and they ranked it extremely low, and worth nowhere near the cost.

 

[Fresh Start]

It makes complete sense. There's GO tracks right now that pass by Kipling, Islington and Dundas West. All that's needed now is better fare integration and frequency of commuter train trips along the Milton Sub coupled with a dedicated BRT or LRT north on Hurontario which veers left into CCTT. Also Etobicoke offers the unique opportunity for doing subway extensions/expansion at- or above-grade. The TTC may claim the ridership justification isn't there, but they can't argue on cost. Crossing the 427's probably the most complicated bit of work needed to get to Sherway. If the TTC were frugal, an above-grade 2-stop extension to North Queen/Queensway could be built for under $600 million.

 

[SlickFranky]

Assuming we had $600M to spend, there are still a hundred places where that money could be put to better use.

 

[rbt]

Assuming we had $600M to spend, there are still a hundred places where that money could be put to better use.

Possibly not.

Within 20 years (and this project will take 10 years to plan and implement) we will want higher capacity on the Bloor line to handle the daily load. Operating frequencies are pretty much as low as they can be. To decrease frequencies a number of things including ATO, reconfiguration of Bloor/Yonge, and reconfigured termination points will be required just as they have been for Yonge.

Of course, a DRL would eliminate the immediate need for a good chunk of that.

 

[golodhendil]

^ I'm sure you just made a typo, but you increase frequencies when you want to decrease headways.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I agree East Mall / Sherway makes more sense than Square One, but where would this extension rank on your list of proposed transit improvements? TTC has studied it and they ranked it extremely low, and worth nowhere near the cost.

It would rank rather low. Ranking is kinda silly, though, since any project takes years to finish and we can build multiple projects simultaneously.

Ranking doesn't indicate how good/bad a project is, though. A northward extension of the Yonge line is possibly the most viable transit project in the city but that doesn't mean it must be ranked first. Extending Bloor to East Mall or Sherway would be a good project whether it's done now, in 20 years, or in 50 years. If the city had a trillion dollars to spend, we'd build it now. There's no urgent need to extend it right now.

The TTC studied it and made assumptions about ridership and development and cost and so on that would be different today. If they were supporting a Bloor extension, they would rig the numbers to justify it, like they do with every other project. Were they assuming a completely underground extension? That would dramatically change the equation. How much redevelopment was in the population/employment scenario? How many bus routes were rerouted to connect with it? How many commuter parking spaces were added? Was there 416/905 fare integration in this scenario? Would the city support the extension by encouraging stores and schools and institutions and businesses to locate there?

Assuming we had $600M to spend, there are still a hundred places where that money could be put to better use.

You couldn't name a hundred if your life depended on it, unless you just list a hundred bus routes that could use slightly improved service (which would be a better way to spend $600M, but we don't need to choose...it's not like we're only ever going to get to do one or the other). Remember that virtually any subway/LRT/GO project would cost well over $600M. Would $600M be better spent helping to get the DRL or all-day GO service built? Well, yeah.

 

[Electrify]

I chose the "Steve Munro" option, but with reservation. I see this thread as a debate between light rail and heavy rail, and I think that light rail offers more than enough capacity for both the near and distant future. However, I do think the lines and stops are better planned out on the SOS proposal.

So the SOS with LRT would be my pick.

 

[Dan416]

It makes complete sense. There's GO tracks right now that pass by Kipling, Islington and Dundas West. All that's needed now is better fare integration and frequency of commuter train trips along the Milton Sub coupled with a dedicated BRT or LRT north on Hurontario which veers left into CCTT. Also Etobicoke offers the unique opportunity for doing subway extensions/expansion at- or above-grade. The TTC may claim the ridership justification isn't there, but they can't argue on cost. Crossing the 427's probably the most complicated bit of work needed to get to Sherway. If the TTC were frugal, an above-grade 2-stop extension to North Queen/Queensway could be built for under $600 million.

If this were that easy it would have been done already. Unfortunately, we have CP Rail to deal with here.

 

[kEiThZ]

If this were that easy it would have been done already. Unfortunately, we have CP Rail to deal with here.

In an era where Metrolinx is actually buying up trackage and Presto is being rolled out it's entirely possible.

Personally, I doubt Mississauga will ever want a subway to Square One. As they build their own network. They'll probably seek to connect it to the TTC at Sherway and at the Airport and on Eglinton. I can't see them paying for their share of the subway, largely to duplicate existing GO and Hurontario functionality. If they do, great! That's probably how we'll get a Sherway extension! Likelihood: low. They aren't York region.