Whose vision of transit in Toronto do you support?

[Junction416]

The left hand turn lanes are not so weird. They are common practice in Michigan and as a tourist who encountered them they were unusual but I managed to survive. I'm sure visitors coming to Toronto will be as smart as me and be able to figure it out, and Toronto's residents might manage as well.

Below is a look at it in action on a large boulevard in Warren County Michigan.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...9205,-82.928764&spn=0.002234,0.00479&t=k&z=18

 

[kEiThZ]

Have you seen an arterial in Michigan? They're mini-expressways. That's what makes Michigan lefts so feasible and popular over there. That said, there really is no choice with Transit City unless we do side -of-road running or use grade separation.

 

[kettal]

No it isn't. They may be widened, but they will also be taking out a lot of on-street parking, as well as left hand turn lanes. I'm skeptical at best at how the whole diverted left turn thing is going to work out. I see it as being a pain in the ass for motorists, and confusing as hell for tourists. Please tell me how the new left turn configurations being proposed on many of the TC lines will make traffic flow 'smoother'.

Did you just say there will be on-street parking removed? I don't know what to say, other than, where exactly are these on-street parking spots being removed from??

By putting up these straw-man arguments, you are embarrassing yourself, insulting our intelligence, and not furthering any meaningful discussion.

In my experience, controlled left turns make driving a lot safer and less stressful for all. Imagine, you are driving straight, you will no longer have to worry that the left turning vehicle might misjudge the gap, and crash into you. He will have his own signal to do left or u-turns, taking all of the guesswork out of the maneuver. That goes not just for at signalized intersections, but preventing left-turn incidents at mid-blocks too.

 

[GTS]

George Smitherman has stated he would like to privatize some services here in the city including some bus routes and possible garbage collection if he were elected mayor. I think some routes don't have enough ridership and would be cancelled because they would never run a profit. I don't know where I stand on this issue, the article mentioned that London, England has privatized bus routes there but I don't know yet how much of a success it has been.

 

[GregWTravels]

As I understand the way the buses work in London, TfL (Transport for London) sets the routes, service levels, fares and stops. Private companies get individual routes (or packages of routes) to provide. They have to provide a certain level of service, but can provide a higher level or service if they wish. Operators still get subsidies. There are a limited number of fully private, commercialised services, but as I understand it those are mostly long distance commuter services (like GO Transit or Greyhound type services).

 

[gweed123]

Did you just say there will be on-street parking removed? I don't know what to say, other than, where exactly are these on-street parking spots being removed from??

I do appologize with the on-street parking thing, I wrote that late last night, and I was thinking of St. Clair (on which they did lose on-street parking to make the streetcar ROW fit). However, there would be a few places on TC routes where they would have to take out on-street parking, along the WWLRT on Lakeshore in South Etobicoke for example.

In my experience, controlled left turns make driving a lot safer and less stressful for all. Imagine, you are driving straight, you will no longer have to worry that the left turning vehicle might misjudge the gap, and crash into you. He will have his own signal to do left or u-turns, taking all of the guesswork out of the maneuver. That goes not just for at signalized intersections, but preventing left-turn incidents at mid-blocks too.

Except when the vehicles waiting in the u-turn lane misjudge how fast the vehicles they're trying to merge with are travelling, and end up getting broad-sided. Unless they're going to put actual traffic lights at the u-turn lanes, it won't really reduce the number of collisions, it will just move them from happening at the actual intersection to happening 10-30m away from the intersection. However, if you have data to support that Michigan turns are actually safer, I'll be willing to accept it.

 

[rbt]

I do appologize with the on-street parking thing, I wrote that late last night, and I was thinking of St. Clair (on which they did lose on-street parking to make the streetcar ROW fit).

With a rebuild like St. Clair the community had a blank slate X feet wide. To say they lost something implies they had it to begin with (blank-slate). They purposfully compromised on parking and bicycle lanes in order to have an additional driving lane (or left-hand turn lanes, etc.).

Another way to build St. Clair would have been pretty much like the Bloor Street rebuild but with a ROW in the middle and standard materials rather than granite. The community, for the most part, compromised to create what they got.

 

[kettal]

Except when the vehicles waiting in the u-turn lane misjudge how fast the vehicles they're trying to merge with are travelling, and end up getting broad-sided. Unless they're going to put actual traffic lights at the u-turn lanes, it won't really reduce the number of collisions, it will just move them from happening at the actual intersection to happening 10-30m away from the intersection. However, if you have data to support that Michigan turns are actually safer, I'll be willing to accept it.

I'm pretty certain that the u-turn lanes will be signalized. If they are not signalized, it's an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Fresh Start]

I don't seriously think we should bypass Sherway entirely. But it's no transit hub. It has one MT route. And it'll never have more. Southeastern Mississauga across from the Etobicoke border is a stable population (or perhaps losing population). Yes people visit Sherway from Mississauga definitely yes. And the ones who take public transit take the ONE route that (eventually) gets there. The rest drive. If there was a subway, sure people would take it. But the rest of the MT routes would still come nowhere near Sherway. It's just too out-of-the-way for the vast majority of MT routes. You clearly did not look at the link I referred you to.

How is linking a Mississuaga Transit route map any sort of pertient information? Moreso, what makes you think that I haven't throughfully studied and analyzed in-depth every single system map within the entire GTA as well the system maps of major cities around the world? I know what I'm talking about CC, you could've just as well shown me a TTC system map today that doesn't have on it the TYSSE subway or any of the Transit City lines. I'm talking about what Mississauga Transit BRT service COULD look like IN THE FUTURE!

A dedicated road-median Highway 427 busway that's fully-paved, two lanes with shoulders, at a 90 km/h speed limit can cover the entire strech from Dundas/West Mall to Sherway Garden in 2.15 minutes. It typically takes 8-10 minutes to get from Dundas/West Mall Cres to Kipling Stn today per the conga line of gridlock along Dundas proper. And another minute to interchange with the bad orientation of stairwells/escalators in Kipling Stn in relation to bus bays. Plus another minute awaiting the train to depart or worse arrive then depart. So 12-13 minutes before one's trip into Toronto can even begin per the mentality of propping up Kipling Stn as a permanent transit hub. On the other hand, navigating the buses all the way down to the too-out-of-the-way locale as you'd put it actually would save commmuters time. And backtracking on the exclusive ROW subway is only a 2-3 minute sojourn with requires no transferring whatsoever at Kipling.

Sherway can house more MT bus routes. There's 5 Dixie, 26/76 Burnhamthrope, 101/201 Dundas, 20 Rathburn, 23 Lakeshore, 230 Sheridan, 35 Eglinton, 82/89/109 Meadowvale, 11 Malton, 50 Creekbank, 70 Keaton, 27 Matheson, 17 Timberlea, and yes 4 Sherway. Only the 1 local and 3 Bloor bus need continue eastwards necessarily. In addition more express BRT routes could be introduced, particularly in mind a Erin Mills route that mimics the 110 bus but connects directly to the subway after Sheridan Ctr/Leanne. I also have in mind further Oakville/Mississauga integrated routes that'd eliminate cross-border bus transfers, saving commuters time.

As for Dixie/Dundas as a terminus, it's not really.I'm fine with Sherway as a terminus, but it'd be better if the subway reached across the border. It'd help more NOW than a Sherway stop ever would. Like I said, East Mall would see usage, Sherway would not.

East mall is a terrible spot for a terminal, worse than Kipling today. And most notably, land availability for a proper terminal anywhere in the immediate Six-Points region is slim-pickings.

 

[GTS]

I would like to see the Bloor Line extended to Sherway too, but, I would like to see Mississauga get a possible LRT line that hooks up to the subway at Kipling and a few MT buses. Most of the TTC buses, except for 2 routes on Kipling itself hook up to the subway at the new Sherway Station instead of Kipling. This set up would allow most TTC riders to get first dibs on the seats on the Subway train before it loads up with MT riders who board at Kipling Station. This set up would remove a lot of bus traffic on Bloor so it wouldn't have to be torn up so often as well. This also means that probably only 2 TTC routes would be using Islington Station freeing up some prime real estate to sell or rent out.

 

[Dan416]

How is linking a Mississuaga Transit route map any sort of pertient information? Moreso, what makes you think that I haven't throughfully studied and analyzed in-depth every single system map within the entire GTA as well the system maps of major cities around the world? I know what I'm talking about CC, you could've just as well shown me a TTC system map today that doesn't have on it the TYSSE subway or any of the Transit City lines. I'm talking about what Mississauga Transit BRT service COULD look like IN THE FUTURE!

A dedicated road-median Highway 427 busway that's fully-paved, two lanes with shoulders, at a 90 km/h speed limit can cover the entire strech from Dundas/West Mall to Sherway Garden in 2.15 minutes. It typically takes 8-10 minutes to get from Dundas/West Mall Cres to Kipling Stn today per the conga line of gridlock along Dundas proper. And another minute to interchange with the bad orientation of stairwells/escalators in Kipling Stn in relation to bus bays. Plus another minute awaiting the train to depart or worse arrive then depart. So 12-13 minutes before one's trip into Toronto can even begin per the mentality of propping up Kipling Stn as a permanent transit hub. On the other hand, navigating the buses all the way down to the too-out-of-the-way locale as you'd put it actually would save commmuters time. And backtracking on the exclusive ROW subway is only a 2-3 minute sojourn with requires no transferring whatsoever at Kipling.

Sherway can house more MT bus routes. There's 5 Dixie, 26/76 Burnhamthrope, 101/201 Dundas, 20 Rathburn, 23 Lakeshore, 230 Sheridan, 35 Eglinton, 82/89/109 Meadowvale, 11 Malton, 50 Creekbank, 70 Keaton, 27 Matheson, 17 Timberlea, and yes 4 Sherway. Only the 1 local and 3 Bloor bus need continue eastwards necessarily. In addition more express BRT routes could be introduced, particularly in mind a Erin Mills route that mimics the 110 bus but connects directly to the subway after Sheridan Ctr/Leanne. I also have in mind further Oakville/Mississauga integrated routes that'd eliminate cross-border bus transfers, saving commuters time.



East mall is a terrible spot for a terminal, worse than Kipling today. And most notably, land availability for a proper terminal anywhere in the immediate Six-Points region is slim-pickings.

Just because you say you've thought about it doesn't mean it's a good idea. doady and/or drum have already pointed out on numerous occasions why Sherway is of no use to MT. I'm tired of debating you on this point. I suppose we can just agree to disagree.

 

[Fresh Start]

Just because you say you've thought about it doesn't mean it's a good idea. doady and/or drum have already pointed out on numerous occasions why Sherway is of no use to MT. I'm tired of debating you on this point. I suppose we can just agree to disagree.

None of which are compelling arugments as to why Sherway "is of no use". Let Drum and Doady tell me personally why it is a bad option as I am not going to search up and down this forum to find out their precise points. If you prefer commuters to spend longer times on the bus (or streetcar) getting to the subway, then that's your problem. If you're arguing against the implementation of something that can travel at speeds of upto 80-90 kpm vs. 35 kpm for subways and 23 kpm (or less!) for LRT, then you are not really promoting true RAPID transit. I'm offering a real solution. One that benefits all of Mississauga. Once again, just like with Transit City, the rapid rail service is only advantageous to commuters whom happen to live within close proximity to it. A few kilometres of subway into Mississauga does diddly squat for people living in Erin Mills or Clarkson or Meadowvale or Streetsville or Malton, whom cannot regularly afford an infrequently scheduled GO POP. However, rather than subject commuters from these areas to very long bus trips followed by an hour long commute on the Bloor Line; I'm proposing that BRT become the optimal mode for Mississauga whereby a more extensive network of mass transit can reach more coffers. Only Hurontario itself at this point qualifies for light-rail and even it could subsist with improved bus service in a dedicated ROW.

I'm tired of the debate too, it's mindboggling how stubborn some people are about which course forward is the correct one, as the city/region's going bankrupt and commuters don't have the luxury of waiting a decade's time on the completion of a whole tramline that'll shave all of 5 minutes off their commute. This is what I'm proposing for the Highway 27 corridor. Rip it to shreds if you want, but 20 years from now when things are going to high hell, you'll wish that you had listened:

 

[rail guy]

I have to go with A. It seems to me that subway expansion just adds more traffic onto exisiting lines that are already grossly overcrowded at rush hour. What happens when subways go to Vaughan and the seats are all filled before the train hits Downsview?

We can't afford to build a subway network now, primarily due to exorbitant tunneling costs. For the price of one subway line, we can build many paralleling LRT lines. I also would like to see rail and hydro right of ways used for expanded rail transit of all types.

RG

 

[Rainforest]

A dedicated road-median Highway 427 busway that's fully-paved, two lanes with shoulders, at a 90 km/h speed limit can cover the entire strech from Dundas/West Mall to Sherway Garden in 2.15 minutes. It typically takes 8-10 minutes to get from Dundas/West Mall Cres to Kipling Stn today per the conga line of gridlock along Dundas proper.

It can well be 2.15 min on the busway ... plus 3 - 4 min to get on and off the busway, and additional 3 min of travel time on subway from Sherway to Kipling.

I think that the truth is somewhere between your and CC's estimates. More than one Mississauga bus can benefit from a terminus at Sherway: in addition to #4, one can run Lakeshore, Dundas (via Dixie and Queensway), Dixie, Tomken, and Cawthra buses there. But, it will be only a moderate improvement over the Kipling terminal.

 

[Rainforest]

I'm pretty certain that the u-turn lanes will be signalized. If they are not signalized, it's an accident waiting to happen.

But then, they need very strong LRT signal priority at u-turn points. If LRT has to stop three times instead of one (at the west-to-east u-turn, at the intersection, and then at the east-to-west u-turn), it defeats the whole purpose of removing the left-turn phase from the main intersection. For the arrangement to work, LRT must get an almost guaranteed green at u-turns.