VIA Rail

[Urban Sky]

HFR would have disappeared in some bureaucrat’s drawer many years ago, if YDS hadn’t ignored the compulsive concerns of excessively risk-averse Bureaucrats and basically responded every time they insisted “You can’t do this!” with “What you gonna do? Fire Me?”. Of course that can only work when your results speak for themselves and make you untouchable, but the impressive growth between 2014 and 2019 allowed him exactly that…

 

[Northern Light]

HFR would have disappeared in some bureaucrat’s drawer many years ago, if YDS hadn’t ignored the compulsive concerns of excessively risk-averse Bureaucrats and basically responded every time they insisted “You can’t do this!” with “What you gonna do? Fire Me?”. Of course that can only work when your results speak for themselves and make you untouchable, but the impressive growth between 2014 and 2019 allowed him exactly that…

That's exactly the right type of leadership in respect of that project file and many of the accomplishments you note. But the system YDS inherited was not the beneficiary of that type of management, more often than not, over the preceding 3 decades.

 

[crs1026]

While its pols who bear the ultimate responsibility for under-investing........... a series of VIA heads who didn't do a good enough job advocating for what the organization needed cannot be let off the hook entirely.

I share your regard for Byford - to that list of heroes I would add Gary Webster and David Gunn. And unquestionably YDs.

If you go back to the earlier history of VIA, you will find examples of head honcho's who found out the hard way which way the wind blew. Frank Roberts is one example, Pierre Franche is another.

Somewhere on youtube there are interviews with Jack Pickersgill, who was Transport Minister around the time VIA was first formed. He couldn't have been clearer in the belief that passenger trains were fundamentally on the way out and that forming VIA was a step in managing their demise, and not their rebirth.

I would say there is ample evidence that the entire federal bureaucracy - not just Transport, but Finance and Treasury Board and others - fundamentally bought in to this and have fought VIA at every opportunity. Either by opposition, or by failure to provide the necessities.

VIA hoggers will tell you an urban legend about the dispatching practice on the Smiths Falls line where one particular siding happened to sit next to a senior bureaucrat's home. Allegedly, he fought a personal battle to force VIa to cease use of that siding because he disliked seeing trains idling in the siding. I can't verify the truth of that story, but it is a fact that the siding is utilised in a very irregular way. And if the entire workforce believes the story, it says something about the culture of the enterprise and their perception of how Ottawa treats their employer.

The utter puzzle to me is not so much the bravery of the management, but rather the role and contribution of the VIA Board. One would hope that these well connected people would be well placed to exercise influence and advocacy on VIA's behalf. More likely, they are a filter that ensures that the requests made of the bureaucrats and pols are not controversial. I have the same distaste for the role played by the Metrolinx Board. It seems these people are deliberately picked to suppress advocacy and discourage business development - the complete opposite of the role of a true Board of Directors.

And as @Urban Sky noted, YDS was not only gutsy but shrewd. But one CEO can only achieve so much in a swamp.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

I haven‘t tried this yet, but that would be quite a step forward:

RAIL ONLINE LAUNCHES IN NORTH AMERICA​

Founded in 2019 by Australian tourism & transport expert, James Dunne, Rail Online allows North American travellers to book UK, European, and North American rail travel via one single platform.

Customers can currently book tickets with Amtrak (US), VIA Rail (Canada), National Rail (UK), and SCNF (France, including Eurostar), with further networks to follow, including Trenitalia (Italy), which will be introduced to the platform in the coming weeks.

 

[robmausser]

Somewhere on youtube there are interviews with Jack Pickersgill, who was Transport Minister around the time VIA was first formed. He couldn't have been clearer in the belief that passenger trains were fundamentally on the way out and that forming VIA was a step in managing their demise, and not their rebirth.

I mean, I wouldn't put all that on Jack, that was literally the consensus amongst everyone at the time VIA was formed. It was essentially secretly VIA's mandate, to basically keep trains barely running at the bare minimum for the poors who couldnt afford a car. Thats really what VIA was about. That's specifically why creating new tracks and the HFR project was so difficult for VIA, it was never setup to operate this way. Capital works projects are the exact opposite of what they were supposed to do.

It's also why there are rail NIMBYS who are furious about the whole GO RER expansion etc: they were sold a property cheap 40 years ago by a relator who told them specifically that the rail behind their house was going to soon be abandoned, and they would have a wonderful lush rail trail park behind their house.

Everyone really thought trains were dead in the 70s and 80s.

 

[cplchanb]

I mean, I wouldn't put all that on Jack, that was literally the consensus amongst everyone at the time VIA was formed. It was essentially secretly VIA's mandate, to basically keep trains barely running at the bare minimum for the poors who couldnt afford a car. Thats really what VIA was about. That's specifically why creating new tracks and the HFR project was so difficult for VIA, it was never setup to operate this way. Capital works projects are the exact opposite of what they were supposed to do.

It's also why there are rail NIMBYS who are furious about the whole GO RER expansion etc: they were sold a property cheap 40 years ago by a relator who told them specifically that the rail behind their house was going to soon be abandoned, and they would have a wonderful lush rail trail park behind their house.

Everyone really thought trains were dead in the 70s and 80s.

No surprising but sickening still how the big car company lobbies have more or less influenced our way of traveling all the way up to the top. I can only imagine how things would've been had cn and cp been competitive or at the very least via been equipped to expand and provide quality service instead of hospice care. Just stupid how the North American mentality is that public transport is perceived for lower classes of society

 

[lenaitch]

No surprising but sickening still how the big car company lobbies have more or less influenced our way of traveling all the way up to the top. I can only imagine how things would've been had cn and cp been competitive or at the very least via been equipped to expand and provide quality service instead of hospice care. Just stupid how the North American mentality is that public transport is perceived for lower classes of society

I'm not sure you can place all of that at the feet of the big car companies unless the view is the public is little more than mindless sheep. Like it or not, the personal vehicle vastly expanded the freedom and flexibility of travel, starting with baby steps probably in the 1930s then really taking off after WWII. Prior to VIA being formed, both main carriers had all sorts of passenger trains running all over the place, but the public voted with its feet. If passenger transportation remained a profitable venture, VIA would not have been necessary.

We are always looking for something or someone else to blame, but in this regard, we saw the enemy and it was us.

 

[Allandale25]

Local politicians to hold Saturday rally to Bring Back Train 82

Brant politicians to hold Saturday rally to Bring Back Train 82

brantfordexpositor.ca

 

[just east of the creek]

I'm not sure you can place all of that at the feet of the big car companies unless the view is the public is little more than mindless sheep. Like it or not, the personal vehicle vastly expanded the freedom and flexibility of travel, starting with baby steps probably in the 1930s then really taking off after WWII. Prior to VIA being formed, both main carriers had all sorts of passenger trains running all over the place, but the public voted with its feet. If passenger transportation remained a profitable venture, VIA would not have been necessary.

We are always looking for something or someone else to blame, but in this regard, we saw the enemy and it was us.

Cars have always been an aspirational desire for almost anyone - NAM, SAM, EU, Asia, Africa. And yes, as the years have gone by our desires have translated into what we see on the roads today. And its not car companies making the choices (d.g. do I purchase a F250 Work truck model or an F450 Platinum...???Hmmmm choices, choices)

Cars and then very quickly, the earlies trucks, offered the buyer tremendous strides in individual choice and freedom, and that's what this continent is all about, the ability for one to make an individual choice (enshrined in Americana - the Great American Dream). And as with all of the technical advances throughout the course of the following century, the car has helped power greater individual freedoms, wealth and lifestyle.

The same lesson applies in agriculture as well, even dating to steam powered machinery (tractors), and ever more mechanical devices. At the lowest level of use, the individual farmer, it offered flexibility, capability, dependability and the promise of a better life. This still holds true, although with the newer generations of equipment, the complexity of the systems is reducing the farmers ability to repair and so the movement of the "Right to Repair" has become a political quest on behalf of farmer groups. (And some of us go to agricultural auctions to buy up older tractors for parts, for the relative simplicity of repair, and for the cost relative to purchasing a new unit).

I cannot consider the car/truck/tractor my enemy. But I recognize its drawbacks in certain settings (Urban Toronto for instance) and the ability of society to keep adding cars, cars, cars, and building roads, roads, roads. That is not a workable choice. So the onus on influencing choices going forwards falls to us, to private enterprise and to governments at all levels to provide the workable alternative choices. Fendt has introduced a working hydrogen powered tractor, and this is a really interesting project. I'm not certain we can ever refuel our four footed livestock on hydrogen, and that would be a real breakthrough!

Having said all of that, it should not be forgotten that bus makers, such as GMC, actively encouraged and conspired in the demise of existing street railways in favour of busses throughout the USA. Private enterprise strikes with ingenuity and even underhandedness in pursuit of business opportunities (and dividends!). Some things do not, will not change.

 

[Urban Sky]

Just a quick reminder that the modal share for passenger transport is dominated by the automobile even in train-obsessed countries like Switzerland (76.9% in 2019, vs. 17.1% for rail) or Japan (57.7% in 2001, vs. 29.5% for rail)…

 

[cplchanb]

Just a quick reminder that the modal share for passenger transport is dominated by the automobile even in train-obsessed countries like Switzerland (76.9% in 2019, vs. 17.1% for rail) or Japan (57.7% in 2001, vs. 29.5% for rail)…

true, but what about us? 1% we should strive to increase that percentage so we can provide more travel options instead of just a car.

 

[lenaitch]

Cars have always been an aspirational desire for almost anyone - NAM, SAM, EU, Asia, Africa. And yes, as the years have gone by our desires have translated into what we see on the roads today. And its not car companies making the choices (d.g. do I purchase a F250 Work truck model or an F450 Platinum...???Hmmmm choices, choices)

Cars and then very quickly, the earlies trucks, offered the buyer tremendous strides in individual choice and freedom, and that's what this continent is all about, the ability for one to make an individual choice (enshrined in Americana - the Great American Dream). And as with all of the technical advances throughout the course of the following century, the car has helped power greater individual freedoms, wealth and lifestyle.

The same lesson applies in agriculture as well, even dating to steam powered machinery (tractors), and ever more mechanical devices. At the lowest level of use, the individual farmer, it offered flexibility, capability, dependability and the promise of a better life. This still holds true, although with the newer generations of equipment, the complexity of the systems is reducing the farmers ability to repair and so the movement of the "Right to Repair" has become a political quest on behalf of farmer groups. (And some of us go to agricultural auctions to buy up older tractors for parts, for the relative simplicity of repair, and for the cost relative to purchasing a new unit).

I cannot consider the car/truck/tractor my enemy. But I recognize its drawbacks in certain settings (Urban Toronto for instance) and the ability of society to keep adding cars, cars, cars, and building roads, roads, roads. That is not a workable choice. So the onus on influencing choices going forwards falls to us, to private enterprise and to governments at all levels to provide the workable alternative choices. Fendt has introduced a working hydrogen powered tractor, and this is a really interesting project. I'm not certain we can ever refuel our four footed livestock on hydrogen, and that would be a real breakthrough!

Having said all of that, it should not be forgotten that bus makers, such as GMC, actively encouraged and conspired in the demise of existing street railways in favour of busses throughout the USA. Private enterprise strikes with ingenuity and even underhandedness in pursuit of business opportunities (and dividends!). Some things do not, will not change.

At least the GM et al did what they did to advance their transit option and not the private auto (ostensibly anyway).

I saw a recent news item on the agricultural 'right-to-repair' issue and was surprised it has taken this long the reach here; it has been a huge issue in the US midwest and assuming the Canadian prairies for quite some time now. The primary issue isn't complexity; although that is a growing factor with self-repair, but the manufacturers holding on to proprietary codes and software. This was an issue when OBD was first introduced into passenger vehicles - I recall Chrysler was one of the worst offenders, but fault coding was comparatively immature back then and there was a bigger lobby group to force legislation. Apparently the legislation they eventually did write wasn't sufficiently encompassing enough to capture the ag industry.

The technology and complexity has efficiency and cost saving benefits but comes at some eye-watering six digit prices. It's a little easier around here to pick up something used but harder when you need something in the 10,000 acre working range.

 

[robmausser]

I'm not sure you can place all of that at the feet of the big car companies unless the view is the public is little more than mindless sheep. Like it or not, the personal vehicle vastly expanded the freedom and flexibility of travel, starting with baby steps probably in the 1930s then really taking off after WWII. Prior to VIA being formed, both main carriers had all sorts of passenger trains running all over the place, but the public voted with its feet. If passenger transportation remained a profitable venture, VIA would not have been necessary.

We are always looking for something or someone else to blame, but in this regard, we saw the enemy and it was us.

Yes, this. Absolutely car companies lobbied for highways and to kill transit, but honestly they didn't have to work that hard. Things were cheap in the 60s and 70s, the economy was booming, and its no lie that owning a car is really super duper convenient.

When the car boom started I don't think anyone realized how it would terribly shape our way of life to be so dependent on it. But yes, now everything in North America is so car centric. And sadly, the economy of the 20th century is gone, there is climate change etc.

 

[ShonTron]

Every time someone brings up the great GM streetcar conspiracy, I feel like I have to pipe in to debunk the myth.

Yes, GM, Firestone, and Standard Oil conspired to buy up urban transit companies in order to corner the market for their products. But they didn’t have an evil scheme to replace streetcars with buses to get people to shift to cars. Streetcars were already on their way out, even in cities that had public transit ownership.

Before the PCC appeared, streetcars weren’t especially comfortable. They had loud air compressors, they weren’t speedy, and often they weren’t heated very well. But unlike early gasoline buses (which never really were a thing until about 1920) they had great capacity.

Only the smallest or most marginal streetcar companies replaced their fleets with buses in the 1920s. Buses were small and uncomfortable.

By the early 1930s, buses were improving, and then you had the Depression. Most streetcar lines were privately owned and not only had to maintain the track and the power, but usually had to maintain the roadway the tracks ran on. If you had 20 year old streetcars to replace, with declining ridership, what would you do? You went either gasoline buses or you bought electric trolley buses, which in the 1930s and 1940s offered more power and more capacity than gas buses.

The big systems did adopt the PCC, especially for their major corridors.

But after the war, if you still had fleets of older 20 and 30 year old streetcars, little money to upgrade, and you had National Coach Lines offering to buy you out, it’d be an easy decision.

NCL owned lines quickly junked the old streetcars and replaced with new GM diesel buses, which by the early 1950s, could match capacity and power of the electric buses. If there was a fleet of PCCs, NCL would likely still run those until they needed overhauls. Other systems would sell their PCCs to cities that wanted them, like Toronto or Mexico City.

Even Detroit, which had a civic-owned transit network like Toronto, junked their streetcars in 1956.

There was no conspiracy to kill transit with buses. There was only a conspiracy to corner the market for buses.

 

[crs1026]

There was no conspiracy to kill transit with buses. There was only a conspiracy to corner the market for buses.

The cost of tracks, substations, etc - much of which was in need of replacement by the end of WW2 - likely seemed completely avoidable, considering the amount of road building going on. The bus won, fair and square.

The growth of the automobile was a social revolution that went way beyond any corporate conspiracy. (Capitalists aren't really that clever!) It reflected the will of most members of society in those days. Ford created the assembly line in the belief that every family should have an automobile. The Post-WWII boom was all about "a car in every garage".

The shrinkage in mass transit was just collateral damage to all that. The conspiracy theories around streetcars may be true in some ways, but that's just a sidebar to the whole trend. Few shed a tear when the streetcars disappeared. The majority saw that as progress.

- Paul