VIA Rail

[Urban Sky]

Given the absence of population centers between Toronto’s greenbelt and Peterborough itself, the only context under which restoring rail service to Peterborough would be the diversion of the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridor along the Havelock Sub (i.e. HFR/HSR). In all other contexts (i.e. as a service focused on Peterborough alone, regardless of whether operated as Commuter or Intercity Rail), it’s unviable…

 

[crs1026]

I know I’ve already mentioned it, but Peterborough needs a VIA (or GoTrain) route. Fix the track, refurbish the station. It would be a modestly popular route, sustaining at least two round trips per weekday. Summer extensions into cottage country would be good too.

Cart before the horse, it seems.....

I absolutely agree that IF there were VIA or GO service to Peterboro, service for a weekend (and maybe weekday) daytrip market would be worthwhile and well used.

In reality, however, Peterboro is no different than Collingwood, or Owen Sound..... there is no viable railway track there at present.

In Peterboro's case, there is very good GO bus connectivity. Spending a ton of money to change that to railway connectivity just to create a recreational train service is pretty low priority. Happily, it will happen anyways (and pretty much for free) when the HxR project finally gets moving.

In all of these projects, "just fix the tracks" is a pretty unrealistic suggestion. Even getting Niagara up to a proper standard will take a lot of money, and needs to happen first....even though the tracks are already there in (more) usable form. I don't see Peterboro jumping the queue. None of these outlying destinations can be added to the network without huge expense.

- Paul

 

[Bordercollie]

Cart before the horse, it seems.....

I absolutely agree that IF there were VIA or GO service to Peterboro, service for a weekend (and maybe weekday) daytrip market would be worthwhile and well used.

In reality, however, Peterboro is no different than Collingwood, or Owen Sound..... there is no viable railway track there at present.

In Peterboro's case, there is very good GO bus connectivity. Spending a ton of money to change that to railway connectivity just to create a recreational train service is pretty low priority. Happily, it will happen anyways (and pretty much for free) when the HxR project finally gets moving.

In all of these projects, "just fix the tracks" is a pretty unrealistic suggestion. Even getting Niagara up to a proper standard will take a lot of money, and needs to happen first....even though the tracks are already there in (more) usable form. I don't see Peterboro jumping the queue. None of these outlying destinations can be added to the network without huge expense.

- Paul

But why restore the service from London but not Kingston?

 

[Admiral Beez]

I absolutely agree that IF there were VIA or GO service to Peterboro, would be worthwhile and well used...... there is no viable railway track there at present.

I see trains all the time in Peterborough traveling I assume to Havlock and the gravel pits beyond. I also know a lot of people who commute 135 km from Peterborough to Toronto who would use this as a daily option. Same as the 110 km GoTrain Barrie to Toronto run.

This one goes past the old passenger station.

Here's the track being refurbed for CP's access to the Quaker Oats factory in Peterborough.

The tracks are there, and were used for passenger rail into the 1980s, see below. The tracks need to be refurbished to allow higher train speeds, but these CP freight trains above are no slouches. To claim that there is no viable track suggests there is none in existence or that ROW issues or dealing with abandoned lines would present challenges.

Courtesy of https://www.ptbocanada.com/journal/...roject-through-peterborough-is-moving-forward

 

[Bordercollie]

I see trains all the time in Peterborough traveling I assume to Havlock and the gravel pits beyond. I also know a lot of people who commute 135 km from Peterborough to Toronto who would use this as a daily option. Same as the 110 km GoTrain Barrie to Toronto run.

This one goes past the old passenger station.

Here's the track being refurbed for CP's access to the Quaker Oats factory in Peterborough.

The tracks are there, and were used for passenger rail into the 1980s, see below. The tracks need to be refurbished to allow higher train speeds, but these CP freight trains above are no slouches. To claim that there is no viable track suggests there is none in existence or that ROW issues or dealing with abandoned lines would present challenges.

Courtesy of https://www.ptbocanada.com/journal/...roject-through-peterborough-is-moving-forward

What you don't understand is that this line is currently 10mph operation. It would take you 9 hours to get to Peterborough when you could drive there in 90min. Are you going to spend 90min on the train when you can drive in 90?

Also to spend millions on track to be used by a few trains a day makes no sense unless you are connecting it to Ottawa.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Are you going to spend 90min on the train when you can drive in 90?

If it's the same time as you suggest, why not?

 

[Bordercollie]

If it's the same time as you suggest, why not?

9 hours vs 90min

 

[MisterF]

Cart before the horse, it seems.....

I absolutely agree that IF there were VIA or GO service to Peterboro, service for a weekend (and maybe weekday) daytrip market would be worthwhile and well used.

In reality, however, Peterboro is no different than Collingwood, or Owen Sound..... there is no viable railway track there at present.

Peterborough is 3-4 times larger than both Collingwood and Owen Sound and has an active rail line. Sure, it would have to be rebuilt to a higher standard but it does exist.

But yes, it makes a lot more sense to include Peterborough in HFR. If HFR goes ahead then the conversation about a stand alone project for one small city will be moot.

 

[crs1026]

Peterborough is 3-4 times larger than both Collingwood and Owen Sound and has an active rail line. Sure, it would have to be rebuilt to a higher standard but it does exist.

But yes, it makes a lot more sense to include Peterborough in HFR. If HFR goes ahead then the conversation about a stand alone project for one small city will be moot.

Rights of way still exist (more or less) to all of the places.

The fact that the Peterborough line has rails in place on the ROW is irrelevant. To restore passenger service, the existing rails and other track components would be completely removed and replaced as they are in no way useable. In some respects, that makes the Peterborough line more costly - as all that demolition hasn't happened yet.

One simply can't assume that if there are still rails in the weeds, the line is somehow easily available for passenger trains. It's effectively a new build for any of these points.

- Paul

 

[Bordercollie]

Rights of way still exist (more or less) to all of the places.

The fact that the Peterborough line has rails in place on the ROW is irrelevant. To restore passenger service, the existing rails and other track components would be completely removed and replaced as they are in no way useable. In some respects, that makes the Peterborough line more costly - as all that demolition hasn't happened yet.

One simply can't assume that if there are still rails in the weeds, the line is somehow easily available for passenger trains. It's effectively a new build for any of these points.

- Paul

Not to mention upgrading of crossings, installing passing sidings and installing CTC along the way. Currently the whole line is dark territory so only one train can occupy the line at the same time.

 

[Allandale25]

From Chris West, an advocate in SW Ontario. @TerryJohnson mentioned.

re GO rail Toronto through Stratford and St. Marys two-year pilot scheduled to end fall 2023

Jim Houston (RAIL) and Terry Johnson (TAC) met with Adrian Lightstone and Sarah Harlley from CPCS [background on who they are here] on the morning of June 29th in London, before the regional roundtable with mayors and Minister Omar Alghabra.
A detailed briefing ~5,000 words, of our previous work and recommendations was provided beforehand. VIA’s presentation deck with the service increase proposed by YDS [a former VIA Rail CEO] was also provided.

• The scope set by Transport Canada for the study by CPCS is Burlington to London, Windsor, and Sarnia. The Kitchener Line is not included, which explains why Stratford officials were not contracted.
• The study is of increased service on the existing CN infrastructure and with existing station locations, although CPCS plan to suggest new stations in Paris and other high-growth locations as possibilities for future consideration.
• VIA Rail is considered a stakeholder in Transport Canada’s study. In parallel, CN has commissioned Iron Road to conduct its own capacity study.
• Transport Canada has asked for three service scenarios to be considered, the best case being hourly service to London, which matches our recommendation.
• Our suggestions to address bottlenecks, such as Komoka junction and Sarnia station, have been received and are being considered.
• Our updated proposal for a London hub was welcomed, Sarah Harlley is a transport planner and recognized the benefit of this for coordination with intercommunity bus services.
• We discussed future international service options through Windsor and Sarnia, and their impact on the design of any improvements to the Sarnia station or infrastructure investment west of Chatham.
• CPCS has not received the deck from MTO’s latest study yet, so this was forwarded after the meeting. Coordination between MTO and TC has room for improvement.
• We highlighted the need for a federal rail policy and enabling legislation for VIA to ensure public investment yields the desired results.

Actions:

• The CPCS report will be presented by year-end, so we should ask for $100M for SWO infrastructure triage in the fall economic update or Budget 2024, so the government has a story to tell within the current term of office.
• We must redouble our efforts to get a reasonable outcome for the communities and passengers between Kitchener and London, possibly through a federal-provincial partnership.
• TAC should seek meetings with Stratford municipal leaders and follow up with Mike Morris MP, Kitchener Centre.

Following the Minister’s roundtable, VIA Rail CEO announced that the return of Trains 82/83 is being worked on. The timetable change at the end of October is the most likely date for implementation.

 

[robmausser]

From Chris West, an advocate in SW Ontario. @TerryJohnson mentioned.

Whatever happens, any increased service to Sarnia needs to be along the CN corridor through Brantford.

The existing route through Kitchener takes 5! hours from Sarnia. Its abysmal.

I don't mind keeping that milk run for people who want to travel from Sarnia to say, Stratford etc, but all new trains should really take the faster route.

 

[MisterF]

Rights of way still exist (more or less) to all of the places.

The fact that the Peterborough line has rails in place on the ROW is irrelevant. To restore passenger service, the existing rails and other track components would be completely removed and replaced as they are in no way useable. In some respects, that makes the Peterborough line more costly - as all that demolition hasn't happened yet.

In theory maybe. But don't underestimate the extra headache of rebuilding tracks when they've been gone for years or even decades. People get used to the lack of trains pretty quickly.

One simply can't assume that if there are still rails in the weeds, the line is somehow easily available for passenger trains. It's effectively a new build for any of these points.

- Paul

I didn't say that the line is easily available for passenger trains. Don't put words in my mouth. I clearly acknowledged that the line would need to be rebuilt to a higher standard. That doesn't change my point that Peterborough isn't equivalent to Owen Sound.

 

[Bordercollie]

Whatever happens, any increased service to Sarnia needs to be along the CN corridor through Brantford.

The existing route through Kitchener takes 5! hours from Sarnia. Its abysmal.

I don't mind keeping that milk run for people who want to travel from Sarnia to say, Stratford etc, but all new trains should really take the faster route.

But does the reinstatement of the VIA train eliminate the need for the GO train from London to Toronto? It serves a different market from what I understand, even though the origin and the destinations are not the same.

 

[dowlingm]

Metrolinx’s tweet was careful to point a finger at both CN and VIA regarding London - did VIA give MLX a choice between buying them out (including stations and their financial contribution to the signalling west of Kitchener) or making way so that they could go back to 2 RT/day? Notwithstanding the 5 bus loads or however many were originating west of KW, the financial impact from the deadheading and slow speed track must have been significant. But that would have been foreseeable in advance, and yet they will have done it two years once kicked off in October.

Ontario Transit Kremlinology is so damn tiring especially when you have to read tealeaves from three levels of government