VIA Rail

[Urban Sky]

Any idea what accounts for this drop?

If you scroll one page further:

Corridor: +7.8%
Canadian: -31.9%
Ocean: -1.9%
Regionals: -17.6%
Total: -1.9%

To name two factors: absence of Canada 150 passholders (which boosted Economy ridership on virtually every departure of the Canadian in July 2017 to four cars which were basically booked out end-to-end) and disastrous OTP on the Canadian and the Skeena, forcing a timetable change on the Canadian in the middle of the high season, which dramatically improved the OTP issue on VIA's flagship route, but uprooted many passenger's and tour operator's travel plans:

Train 2 (Vancouver-Winnipeg-Toronto):

Train 1 (Toronto-Winnipeg-Vancouver):

Note: Train 2 departing Vancouver on 2018-09-28 was terminated in Capreol, where consequently Train 1 scheduled to depart Toronto on 2018-10-02 originated from.
Source: VIA Rail website

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Yeah, there's been no mention of it here with the nosecone discussion, but Brightline also has derated engines, which by the sounds of VIAs spec are probably a good match for the corridor.

Frankly I'm with both sides on the nosecone thing, but wonder if it might be possible to get these trains as simple add-ons to a Brightline order.

 

[steveintoronto]

Yeah, there's been no mention of it here with the nosecone discussion, but Brightline also has derated engines, which by the sounds of VIAs spec are probably a good match for the corridor.

See post #4,710 Brightline use two locos per trainset, even with the initial four coach consists. That was detailed in at least one of my posts, the latter being the last day or so. Common sense tells me that with VIA's relatively flat grade on Corridor lines, and an allowed top speed of 110 mph, one will be fine, with a control cab car at the other end, as detailed in the Austrian Railjet series which I posted here a few days back to allow the "push-ull" operation mandated in the RFP.

Frankly I'm with both sides on the nosecone thing, but wonder if it might be possible to get these trains as simple add-ons to a Brightline order.

Why Brightline? If it's for the coaches, it's doubtful there'll be much difference in price, plus Brightline already have theirs delivered, let alone ordered.
Final Brightline Train Delivered, Service By Year End - The Next Miami

The 'add-on' would already be included in the price that Siemens quoted, assuming they themselves quoted directly, and not through an intermediary as allowed under the RFP. The RFP asks for "trainsets"...not individual locos and coaches that can be coupled together by VIA themselves. And the ostensible service contract in that bid would be for the entire trainset and replacement fleet. And the "trainset" must presently be in service elsewhere, proven and meets all present regs and requirements at the time of the RFP's issue. Brightline doesn't meet that requirement, albeit it might now if the RFP is reissued.

And Brightline is a tiny order compared to the massive Amtrak and State agency orders, all of which, btw, are the 4400 hp SC-44. Sans probiscus. And a number of them are able to legally run the locos at their 125 mph max. (There references to them being able to 'overclock this rating in tests) Canada's max at present is 110 mph.
3Customers

• 3.1Amtrak (state corridors)
• 3.2MARC
• 3.3Brightline
• 3.4Altamont Corridor Express
• 3.5COASTER
• 3.6Metro-North Railroad
• 3.7Northern Lights Express (proposed)

If the public really need to be impressed, spend the money on improving track and regs, not silly party noses. I'm reminded of the saying "All show and no go" for Cdns and faster passenger rail. Canada does produce voluminous amounts of reports, studies and analyses on the hypothesis of higher speed rail in Canada, however. In this she's a world leader.

 

[micheal_can]

If you scroll one page further:
View attachment 165801
Corridor: +7.8%
Canadian: -31.9%
Ocean: -1.9%
Regionals: -17.6%
Total: -1.9%

To name two factors: absence of Canada 150 passholders (which boosted Economy ridership on virtually every departure of the Canadian in July 2017 to four cars which were basically booked out end-to-end) and disastrous OTP on the Canadian and the Skeena, forcing a timetable change on the Canadian in the middle of the high season, which dramatically improved the OTP issue on VIA's flagship route, but uprooted many passenger's and tour operator's travel plans:

Train 2 (Vancouver-Winnipeg-Toronto):
View attachment 165804

Train 1 (Toronto-Winnipeg-Vancouver):
View attachment 165805
Note: Train 2 departing Vancouver on 2018-09-28 was terminated in Capreol, where consequently Train 1 scheduled to depart Toronto on 2018-10-02 originated from.
Source: VIA Rail website

I have said before, and will say again, the Canadian should terminate in Winnipeg. It should leave 12 hours later.

Something I have been thinking, what is the most frequent service that could be offered on that route without needing new rolling stock?

 

[steveintoronto]

Siemens Vaggio Coaches Brochure:
https://w5.siemens.com/cms/mam/mobility/Documents/viaggio-imagebroschuere-en.pdf

It looks like the Brightline uses a variation of the Vaggio Comfort if not exactly identical. This would probably be the for the Corridor.

Interestingly, Siemens also has the Vaggio Classic that is a sleeping coach. I wouldn't be surprised if ViaRail is also looking at these for their cross continent services. Does anyone know if there are specific regulations under Transport Canada/FRA for passenger coaches?

At this time, VIA is only considering this:

VIA Rail is excited to confirm that following the Federal Budget 2018 it will acquire a new train fleet to replace the current rolling stock operating within the Québec City – Windsor corridor, which serves the majority of our passengers. It is expected that by 2022, we will be welcoming Canadians on board a brand new set of trains. Our current fleet, reaching the end of its useful life, has served us well over the past 35 years, but it is now time to modernize ensuring safer, faster, more frequent, more accessible and an environmentally-friendly service. With the introduction of new trains, VIA Rail can offer a better travel experience with more comfortable cars that are better adapted and more accessible to people with reduced mobility – not to mention greener.
[...]
REQUIREMENTS
VIA Rail is looking to procure a new fleet that meets the following criteria through its fleet replacement process:

9,100 passenger seats, provided by 32 bi-directional trainsets to replace the cars and locomotives in service along the Québec City-Windsor corridor.

Enhanced Universal Accessibility features for passengers with reduced mobility, including multiple accommodations for wheelchairs and other mobility devices on the trains.

More fuel-efficient, Tier 4 Diesel engines, with the option to operate on electrified rail infrastructure as it becomes available.

Capability of trainsets to operate in either direction (push-pull) to reduce the turnaround time for trains at stations in urban centres, thereby reducing operating costs.
[...]

https://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/fleet-renewal

Note that these coaches are configured to operate only in trainsets, not individually, using a version of a 'drawbar' such that in an accident, the coaches won't uncouple from each other. It must be noted in the recent US NW Corridor crash, the Talgo coaches' drawbars kept a number of coaches suspended from crashing down to the road below. The death toll could have been much higher...

 

[dowlingm]

Bit of a cloud hanging over Talgo at present - if they offered variations of existing North American trains I can understand why VIA might pass for now https://www.google.ca/amp/s/q13fox....adly-amtrak-train-derailment-near-dupont/amp/

 

[Garuda]

Random question: when Bloomington GO opens in 2019, should the Canadian make this a stop? I think it should as the station could be useful in the summer months when adventurers from the GTA want to take a canoe deep into northern Ontario for a trip.

 

[Allandale25]

The dinning roach for VIA's Churchill service got an external makeover: https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/l...in-gets-arctic-themed-makeover-501660141.html

And here's the link to the U of M project mentioned in the article: http://news.umanitoba.ca/expedition-churchill-a-gateway-to-arctic-research/

 

[steveintoronto]

Bit of a cloud hanging over Talgo at present - if they offered variations of existing North American trains I can understand why VIA might pass for now https://www.google.ca/amp/s/q13fox....adly-amtrak-train-derailment-near-dupont/amp/

Very interesting. It would seem that "drawbars" (as used for semi-permanent coupling of the coaches) are considered inherently safer, but having a real challenge with Google to find anything on "trainsets" (Google insists on 'train sets') and 'drawbars'. All the respondents to VIA's RFP had semi or fully permanent coupled coaches, thus the requirement for "trainsets"...in this case including the loco(s).

What's notable with the Dupont crash was that the locos (Chargers IIRC) stayed upright on the tracks, but decoupled from the coaches ostensibly by using an AAR coupler.

Crumple resistance for the ends of the Talgos could very well be an issue, especially in lieu of the Jacobs Bogies:

Design

Left: Conventional bogie system.
Right: System Talgo
Talgo trains are best known for their unconventional articulated railway passenger car that uses a type similar to the Jacobs bogie that Talgo patented in 1941, similar to the Robert Stephenson and Company trains. The wheels are mounted in pairs but not joined by an axle and the bogies are shared between coaches rather than underneath individual coaches. This allows a railway car to take a turn at higher speed with less swaying. As the coaches are not mounted directly onto wheel bogies, the coaches are more easily insulated from track noise. [...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talgo

Acela, being High Speed, is semi-permanently coupled:

Acela trains are semi-permanently coupled (but not articulated as in the TGV) and are referred to as trainsets

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acela_Express

Note Google using the term "trainset" (all one word) but not showing results when searching for it. I blame the talgorithms...

And the Railjet Siemens coaches are *permanently coupled*:

Trainsets
A Railjet train set consists of seven individual coaches that are permanently coupled with airtight interconnections, but with buffer and hook couplings on the outer ends of the set of coaches suitable for buffer and chain screw coupling[19] Two complete train sets with two locomotives can be run as a pair giving a train of fourteen carriages.[20] The coach furthest from the locomotive acts as a control car. The number of carriages per train can be extended up to ten in a single train unit.[21]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railjet

Brightline is same.

Interesting discussion here on many points we've discussed (and argued) here:
https://discuss.amtraktrains.com/in...ny-reason-they-cant-be-used-by-amtrak/&page=2

 

[littlewill1166]

That was detailed in at least one of my posts, the latter being the last day or so. Common sense tells me that with VIA's relatively flat grade on Corridor lines, and an allowed top speed of 110 mph, one will be fine, with a control cab car at the other end, as detailed in the Austrian Railjet series which I posted here a few days back to allow the "push-ull" operation mandated in the RFP.
Why Brightline? If it's for the coaches, it's doubtful there'll be much difference in price, plus Brightline already have

Given that there are wheel slip issues in the fall when leaves fall on the tracks, and VIA currently has engines on either end of the consist currently to counteract this, I'm pretty sure that they're going with locos at both ends.

 

[steveintoronto]

Given that there are wheel slip issues in the fall when leaves fall on the tracks, and VIA currently has engines on either end of the consist currently to counteract this, I'm pretty sure that they're going with locos at both ends.

Can you offer a link or reference for that? The consists I'm aware of that do that are to split the trains at a junction, or reunite them on return to use just one pathing.

If it was such a concern in this part of the world, then surely the US would be doing this? Or GO Transit and other operators with large amounts of acceleration/deceleration? Only Brightline that I'm aware of is doing 'top and tail', and it's for other reasons already detailed. Railjet don't. They use driving trailers (control cab cars), as do a number of other European nations with considerably lusher tree growth than here, and at actual "High Speed" velocities and rates of acceleration.

What the possibility exists for at a future time is the addition of an electric loco at the other end of the diesel loco to make the *trainset* hybrid, albeit it has downsides, not the least dragging dead weight one end or the other.

Edit: There is a case I can find in North Am where Chargers are run in a 'top and tail' configuration, but it's with the older stock loco at the other end ostensibly being used as a driving trailer:

[...]
All the Amtrak Cascades trains operate in a push-pull configuration that allows them to make a roundtrip without turning the train around. Initially, the trains will run with a new locomotive at one end and an older locomotive on the other end. This is part of the final process to break in the locomotives. Therefore, sometimes you’ll see the new locomotives pulling the train from the front and, at other times, they’ll be pushing the train from the back. The existing Amtrak F-59 locomotives will be phased out of service on this corridor over the next year.[...]

https://wsdotblog.blogspot.com/2017/11/theyre-here-new-amtrak-cascades.html

[...]
ÖBB has found itself in the situation, where it faces competition from North (Germany) and West (Switzerland and France) and has made its decision to survive in the new open access operating environment. To compete it has created an own innovative design, not quite capable of true super high speed, but also maintaining a certain amount of flexibility if things for the small operator should change. Siemens Tauruses can be used elsewhere as well as coaches with some modifications. There is also always market for the driving trailers. If need be, more cars can be added and if more power is needed, it is easy to add locomotive to the other end or even in the middle like some of the double length trains are run.
[...]
Railjet Rolling Stock
Each Railjet unit consists of a Taurus (ÖBB class 1116)locomotive, driving trailer at the opposite end, one first class coach, a bistro car and three economy class coaches.

Picture: The Railjet driving trailer (class Afmpz) shares the design of the Taurus locomotive at the other end of the train. Unusually stylish for the driving trailer! Picture provided by Siemens AG. [...]

http://www.4rail.net/ref_fast_railjet.html

 

[lenaitch]

Random question: when Bloomington GO opens in 2019, should the Canadian make this a stop? I think it should as the station could be useful in the summer months when adventurers from the GTA want to take a canoe deep into northern Ontario for a trip.

There might be regulatory or some other reason why the Canadian doesn't currently stop in the GTA, or GO service area or some such thing. A minor point but adding a stop would impact on a schedule that nobody seems happy with. It would be interesting to see if some kind of market study supported this. Obviously, trips would have to be scheduled to match the train schedule and be circular, or at least terminate at some other point on the line. Depending on the drop off flag station, I'm not too sure I'd be thrilled about being set off in the middle of the night. Last I looked VIA charges $100 per canoe

 

[lenaitch]

Given that there are wheel slip issues in the fall when leaves fall on the tracks, and VIA currently has engines on either end of the consist currently to counteract this, I'm pretty sure that they're going with locos at both ends.

Is wheel slip due to leaves an issue on many VIA routes? What routes does VIA have power at both ends?

 

[micheal_can]

There might be regulatory or some other reason why the Canadian doesn't currently stop in the GTA, or GO service area or some such thing. A minor point but adding a stop would impact on a schedule that nobody seems happy with. It would be interesting to see if some kind of market study supported this. Obviously, trips would have to be scheduled to match the train schedule and be circular, or at least terminate at some other point on the line. Depending on the drop off flag station, I'm not too sure I'd be thrilled about being set off in the middle of the night. Last I looked VIA charges $100 per canoe

They stop at other GO Stations, so why not?

 

[Urban Sky]

Frankly I'm with both sides on the nosecone thing, but wonder if it might be possible to get these trains as simple add-ons to a Brightline order.

Every train order is custom-made and the requirement of a bimode solution and compatibility with multiple boarding heights (to just name two points) are significant differences from Brightline's specifications...

See post #4,710 Brightline use two locos per trainset, even with the initial four coach consists. That was detailed in at least one of my posts, the latter being the last day or so. Common sense tells me that with VIA's relatively flat grade on Corridor lines, and an allowed top speed of 110 mph, one will be fine, with a control cab car at the other end, as detailed in the Austrian Railjet series which I posted here a few days back to allow the "push-ull" operation mandated in the RFP.
[...]
The 'add-on' would already be included in the price that Siemens quoted, assuming they themselves quoted directly, and not through an intermediary as allowed under the RFP. The RFP asks for "trainsets"...not individual locos and coaches that can be coupled together by VIA themselves. And the ostensible service contract in that bid would be for the entire trainset and replacement fleet. And the "trainset" must presently be in service elsewhere, proven and meets all present regs and requirements at the time of the RFP's issue. Brightline doesn't meet that requirement, albeit it might now if the RFP is reissued.

At this time, VIA is only considering this:

https://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/fleet-renewal

Note that these coaches are configured to operate only in trainsets, not individually, using a version of a 'drawbar' such that in an accident, the coaches won't uncouple from each other. It must be noted in the recent US NW Corridor crash, the Talgo coaches' drawbars kept a number of coaches suspended from crashing down to the road below. The death toll could have been much higher...

To me, personally, having fixed trainsets are more of a bug than a feature (think of the Renaissance train which derailed last Sunday in Halifax and which could not travel if you cut out any of its critical cars, such as Baggage, the accessible Economy car, both Service cars, the Diner and the accessible sleeper) and I believe to recall RFQ documents which stated that a locomotive manufacturer could make a joint bid with a car manufacturer, as long as they formed one consortium which assumes all responsibilities of the contract.

And Brightline is a tiny order compared to the massive Amtrak and State agency orders, all of which, btw, are the 4400 hp SC-44. Sans probiscus. And a number of them are able to legally run the locos at their 125 mph max. (There references to them being able to 'overclock this rating in tests) Canada's max at present is 110 mph.

Correct, but the capability of reaching 125 mph (as well as being HFR-ready) is a requirement as per the RFQ documents:

(6) Options to acquire additional trainsets will be principally predicated on the Government of Canada's decision regarding VIA Rail's long term plan to build its own dedicated infrastructure. In the event that VIA Rail is given the authority to build its own infrastructure in the Corridor but such infrastructure is not electrified, then additional diesel only trainsets will be required to enable increased service frequencies. If VIA Rail is given the authority to build its own infrastructure and electrification is required, then the additional trainsets must be capable of both diesel and electric operation (dual-mode) at up to 125 mph, with seamless transition, and bi-directional operation. If the decision on VIA Rail's long term plan and the timeframe to implement this decision is not yet established at the time of the order for the additional trainsets, then the delivery of the additional trainsets could be deferred until the decision and schedule is available.

I have said before, and will say again, the Canadian should terminate in Winnipeg. It should leave 12 hours later.

Yes, sure, the fact that VIA has grown its passenger revenue by 61% in the last 4 years (representing an annualized growth rate of 15%, even after inflation) demonstrates that VIA has to kick out its Sleeper passengers half-way between Toronto and Winnipeg for whatever benefit you have yet to specify^^.

Something I have been thinking, what is the most frequent service that could be offered on that route without needing new rolling stock?

Kudos for actually considering that whatever timetable scenarios you are envisioning actually has to be backed up by the fleet availability! Tell me what time you want a train to originate at which station, where you want it to terminate and what cars your peak consist is going to have (Locomotive - Baggage - Economy - Skyline - Diner - Sleeper - Prestige Sleeper - Park; don't forget to specify quantities for every car type) and I can draft you a timetable (assuming the current scheduled run times) and comment on what frequencies you might be able to cover with the current fleet requirement of the Canadian...

Random question: when Bloomington GO opens in 2019, should the Canadian make this a stop? I think it should as the station could be useful in the summer months when adventurers from the GTA want to take a canoe deep into northern Ontario for a trip.

Thank you for this suggestion, I will keep this in mind next time VIA reviews the Canadian's schedule...