VIA Rail

[Jeff Morgan]

What is the trend with Via? Is ridership increasing or decreasing?

 

[robmausser]

I think there's merit, and the TTC/Metrolinx seem to have used rounded shapes for some of their vehicles that weren't exactly necessary (Toronto Rocket, Flexity Freedom, CLRV how it tapers toward the front). This isn't like gluing some hockey sticks to the back of a Monte Carlo to look like a spoiler. The public doesn't know trains for the most part.

And yes, shiny things. New paint for the trains, regular cleaning, a more modern livery, using coaches of the same age. Right now you see a Via and it's a hodgepodge of old and older trains, dated look, drab colours. Improve those things, and there should be a quantifiable uptick in usage.

Yes. So many engineer types here and the dont understand or are unwilling to understand that the general public does not think like them.

Appearances matter the most to most people over anything else. Its marketing 101.

What was the first complaint about the UPX? That it was ugly.

 

[lenaitch]

I don't think anybody is saying they have to look like a bag of potatoes. Designs and aerodynamic considerations have evolved, as have panel materials and moulding technologies. The concern or objection seems to be spending public funds on additions or features solely to make the vehicles look swoopy or sexy. If a certain preferred vehicle comes designed a certain way, so be it. In addition to issues such as environmental vulnerability (snow, ice, etc.) it starts to remind me of this:

becoming this:

 

[MisterF]

The Siemens locomotives look nice enough to me, certainly sleeker looking than anything in Via's current fleet. The Brightline ones look even nicer though, and they'd be great on Via's HFR routes (assuming they can clear snow). But as far as public perception goes, the appeal would be lost on slow, unreliable and bumpy routes like the one through Stratford. They'd become jokes in the eyes of the public. Potemkin villages on wheels.

 

[Urban Sky]

Yes. So many engineer types here and the dont understand or are unwilling to understand that the general public does not think like them.

I agree with you until this point.

Appearances matter the most to most people over anything else. Its marketing 101.

@Moderators: Seriously, can we move the "pointy nose" debate into a dedicated thread (proposed title: "The great 'Pointy Nose' debate")?

What was the first complaint about the UPX? That it was ugly.

Well, these are some of the complaints I recall:

• that the taxpayer ended up funding what was supposed to "not cost a nickel of government money subsidizing this operation"
• that it only saved money to those rich business people who would used to take a taxi to the city center
• that it was a stub ending at the Airport, rather than continuing to Brampton or Mississauge or beyond
• that it bound taxpayer money to serve a tiny market with size with relatively wealthy riders with AD2D service instead of much busier corridors
• that its high fare priced out commuters while travelling mostly empty
• that its branding was bizarrely wasteful (custom-designed uniforms and an airline-style magazine)
• that it was operated with diesel instead of electrical traction

Therefore, please provide one news account where the train's design was quoted as a major point of criticism or stop wasting the time of myself and of other readers in this forum by engaging into discussions which only pertain train foamers, but not the general audience at which this urbanist forum is targetted. Thank you!

 

[felix123]

I agree with you until this point.


@Moderators: Seriously, can we move the "pointy nose" debate into a dedicated thread (proposed title: "The great 'Pointy Nose' debate")?


Well, these are some of the complaints I recall:

• that the taxpayer ended up funding what was supposed to "not cost a nickel of government money subsidizing this operation"
• that it only saved money to those rich business people who would used to take a taxi to the city center
• that it was a stub ending at the Airport, rather than continuing to Brampton or Mississauge or beyond
• that it bound taxpayer money to serve a tiny market with size with relatively wealthy riders with AD2D service instead of much busier corridors
• that its high fare priced out commuters while travelling mostly empty
• that its branding was bizarrely wasteful (custom-designed uniforms and an airline-style magazine)
• that it was operated with diesel instead of electrical traction

Therefore, please provide one news account where the train's design was quoted as a major point of criticism or stop wasting the time of myself and of other readers in this forum by engaging into discussions which only pertain train foamers, but not the general audience at which this urbanist forum is targetted. Thank you!

It's referenced here: https://nationalpost.com/news/toron...rain-to-the-airport-is-a-huge-win-for-toronto

What is odd to me is that this is fairly on-topic, as far as the threads here go. The latest news is that VIA is selecting new trainsets and forumers are curious about the design and are voicing their opinions. Then we have some forumers becoming so indignant about the pro-sleek view to the point of hurling insults and calling to ban further discussion about the design.
If anyone's a foamer, it's those who are obsessed with the technical points of the train, not those, like myself, who have very basic and pedestrian opinions on these designs. For that reason, I think that the average potential rider would be drawn to taking the train for similarly basic reasons, even though, like me, they might not understand that the Charger is apparently excellent, as some enthusiasts here have made clear.

 

[kEiThZ]

What was the first complaint about the UPX? That it was ugly.

The first and only complaint I recall being aired vociferously was the price. But then again I don't hang around train geeks.

 

[OCCheetos]

What is the trend with Via? Is ridership increasing or decreasing?

I believe it's currently increasing, at least on the corridor. They've steadily added trains between Ottawa and Toronto over the last few years.

 

[steveintoronto]

What is the trend with Via? Is ridership increasing or decreasing?

Increasing, markedly, at least the last few years. IIRC, VIA have been consistently breaking their ridership records, but best I caveat that since I don't have a reference handy: *On their Corridor routes*.

It does indicate that even if VIA hasn't had a 'point' until now, they have a steadily increasing ridership anyway.

OK, here's reference:

[...]"Canadians in record numbers are demonstrating their preference for train travel and taking advantage of the easy, enjoyable and sustainable experience that VIA Rail offers, declared Yves Desjardins-Siciliano, President and Chief Executive Officer at VIA Rail. "Our continued growth over the last four years, this being our 17th consecutive quarter with revenue growth, and our 10th consecutive quarter with ridership increases, is a direct result of the dedication and professionalism of our employees who provide the best travel experience to Canadians." [...]

Increased revenues and ridership for VIA Rail in second quarter 2018

Meantime, on their 'point':

The creatures who live in the Land of Point all have pointy features, except Oblio (Mike Lookinland), whose circular head is unusual. Singled out because of his appearance, Oblio is exiled to the Pointless Forest. In the process, he learns that it doesn't matter what you look like -- it's who you are on the inside that counts. Narrated by former Beatle Ringo Starr and featuring music by late folk-rocker Harry Nilsson, this animated children's fable is about one of life's important lessons.

The Point
1971 ‧ Drama/Television film ‧ 1h 14m

The Point (TV Movie 1971) - IMDb

 

[littlewill1166]

I believe it's currently increasing, at least on the corridor. They've steadily added trains between Ottawa and Toronto over the last few years.

I think they might start adding some more trains soon. They changed the way they cycled the trains 2 weeks back and they're starting to do push-pull trains into Southwestern Ontario from Ottawa (previously trains in Southwestern Ontario came from both Montreal and Ottawa).

 

[littlewill1166]

https://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/fi...-company/quartely-reports/2018/Q3_2018_EN.PDF

Q3 report is out with ridership increasing 6.2% compared to last year and revenues increasing by 5.1%.

 

[dowlingm]

Q3 total passenger miles down Q3 18 vs Q3 17, and only 65pc OTP...

 

[Urban Sky]

It's referenced here: https://nationalpost.com/news/toron...rain-to-the-airport-is-a-huge-win-for-toronto

Is $27.50 a reasonable price to see a movie about a man who attached balloons to his house? The premium ticketing for the condensed edit of Up has rankled Pixar fans — wait, what? Chris Selley, Matt Gurney, and NOW’s Jonathan Goldsbie debate the cost of the new UP Express, which is apparently the train linking Union to Pearson.

Selley: Last week, Metrolinx finally revealed what it will cost to ride the Union-Pearson Express: $27.50, $19 if you use a Presto card. There was cause for some relief; it was feared the number would be considerably higher. But this is Toronto, so we got headlines like “Union-Pearson Express fares as expensive as expected” (BlogTO). And in the comments below, the bitchfest began anew: Too expensive, not a commuter service, too many stops, inappropriate use of public money, ugly diesel trains, yadda yadda yadda. Personally, I’m willing to set aside my limited objections and call the long-awaited airport link a huge win — especially considering how hard so many people tried to stop it.

Wow, an interview in which it is mentioned that someone complained about "ugly diesel trains" in the comments section of a blog post, this is not exactly a news account in which the train's external design is cited as a major source of criticism...

What is odd to me is that this is fairly on-topic, as far as the threads here go. The latest news is that VIA is selecting new trainsets and forumers are curious about the design and are voicing their opinions.

All we know so far is that there is a funded fleet renewal programme and that VIA Rail has qualified four potential suppliers (in alphabetical order: Bombardier, Siemens, Stadler and Talgo) and that the responsible ministers have declared that "it won’t force state-owned Via Rail to pick Bombardier Inc. over Siemens AG". That is all what we know - and believe it or not: all I know as well.
The current discussion is therefore based on the following assumptions (i.e. speculations):

• That VIA Rail has indeed determined that Siemens has submitted the best bid.
• That Siemens' bid is based on the "Charger" locomotives.
• That Siemens' bid is based on the SC44 version of the Charger locomotive, as opposed to the SCB40 "pointy-nose" version delivered to Brightline.
• That the three other qualified suppliers had produced bids which included "pointy noses".
• That passengers need to see a "pointy nose" to understand that this is a modern train, as its absence may negate most of the service improvements achieved with the new fleet (and improved service).
• That even though passengers may erroneously believe that the "pointy nose" belongs to a bullet train, they will either not realise that the "pointy nose" doesn't belong to a bullet train or be happy that even though the train is no bullet train, the "pointy nose" at least allows them to imagine they are sitting in one.

You might disagree, but I believe that this is quite an elaborate level of speculation and certainly too elaborate for me to engage in it...

Then we have some forumers becoming so indignant about the pro-sleek view to the point of hurling insults and calling to ban further discussion about the design.

I have never said that this discussion should not take place, I have simply asked the moderators to create a dedicated space for that discussion. And speaking of insults: the only insult I recall was Robmauser yesterday expressing his amusement to watch how "butthurt" Steveintoronto is. (This comment was posted yesterday as comment #4706, but I unfortunately wasn't able to make a screenshot because it got presumably deleted by an admin...)

If anyone's a foamer, it's those who are obsessed with the technical points of the train, not those, like myself, who have very basic and pedestrian opinions on these designs. For that reason, I think that the average potential rider would be drawn to taking the train for similarly basic reasons, even though, like me, they might not understand that the Charger is apparently excellent, as some enthusiasts here have made clear.

Exactly, passengers take trains for very basic reasons, meaning that they desire a service which operates at a departure time, arrival time, travel time, punctuality, travel cost, seating comfort, noise level and on-board service quality which corresponds to their needs. Insisting on "pointy noses" is exactly the obsession about "the technical points of the train" you criticise!

The first and only complaint I recall being aired vociferously was the price. But then again I don't hang around train geeks.

I provided quite an extensive list of the complaints I heard, but "ugly trains" was indeed no complaint which was expressed prominently in any way...

I believe it's currently increasing, at least on the corridor. They've steadily added trains between Ottawa and Toronto over the last few years.

Source: VIA Rail Annual Reports 2013-2017

Q3 total passenger miles down Q3 18 vs Q3 17, and only 65pc OTP...

Total Passenger Miles:
2014 Q3: 233 million
2015 Q3: 246 million
2016 Q3: 258 million
2017 Q3: 296 million
2018 Q3: 291 million
Still an absolute increase of 24.9% over 2014 or 4.7% annualised growth...

 

[littlewill1166]

Q3 total passenger miles down Q3 18 vs Q3 17, and only 65pc OTP...

Quite a bit of the OTP drop can be attributed to GO maintenance on the Lakeshore West corridor delaying trains coming out of the TMC.

 

[kEiThZ]

2017 Q3: 296 million
2018 Q3: 291 million

Any idea what accounts for this drop?