VIA Rail

[lenaitch]

They stop at other GO Stations, so why not?

You might be correct. I was just speculating why the Canadian's last stop is Washago and not, say, Richmond Hill. I don't recall if it stopped at Barrie or Orillia when it was on the Newmarket sub or, say Alliston or Midhurst when it ran on CP.

 

[Garuda]

There might be regulatory or some other reason why the Canadian doesn't currently stop in the GTA, or GO service area or some such thing. A minor point but adding a stop would impact on a schedule that nobody seems happy with. It would be interesting to see if some kind of market study supported this. Obviously, trips would have to be scheduled to match the train schedule and be circular, or at least terminate at some other point on the line. Depending on the drop off flag station, I'm not too sure I'd be thrilled about being set off in the middle of the night. Last I looked VIA charges $100 per canoe

VIA's Canadian only stops at some stations if passengers are scheduled for pick up or drop off. Using the Canadian to reach the hinterland of Ontario is very popular during the summer. The current Sudbury-White River train has an entire car dedicated to carrying canoes and bulk items for hunting camps. I've been looking at booking such a trip with friends. The idea is that you take the train into the hinterland, get off at a flag stop (if at night, camp) and ride the river to the end. And either get picked up by a float plane or by a highway. It's not cheap and paying $100 for a canoe is moot when it's an adventure of a lifetime to a place few people have gone.

VIA's service's to/from northern Quebec and Montreal stop at Exo's Sauvé and Anjou stations. Like michael_can said, they use other stations so why not.

The point I make is that loading a canoe would be much easier at Bloomington as opposed to bringing it to Union Station. And those taking the Canadian from the northern GTA would find it more useful than travelling all the way downtown.

Urban Sky, how useful is it to maintain Washago as a station? Bloomington would be a more useful stop than Washago. Honest question, what are the passengers numbers for it?

 

[micheal_can]

Yes, sure, the fact that VIA has grown its passenger revenue by 61% in the last 4 years (representing an annualized growth rate of 15%, even after inflation) demonstrates that VIA has to kick out its Sleeper passengers half-way between Toronto and Winnipeg for whatever benefit you have yet to specify^^.

Kudos for actually considering that whatever timetable scenarios you are envisioning actually has to be backed up by the fleet availability! Tell me what time you want a train to originate at which station, where you want it to terminate and what cars your peak consist is going to have (Locomotive - Baggage - Economy - Skyline - Diner - Sleeper - Prestige Sleeper - Park; don't forget to specify quantities for every car type) and I can draft you a timetable (assuming the current scheduled run times) and comment on what frequencies you might be able to cover with the current fleet requirement of the Canadian...
.

I mean the Canadian train.
That line, do they have more of the same rolling stock that could be used to increase frequency or would new(er) rolling stock be needed?
I suggest the 12 hour layover in Winnipeg so that it can arrive in Vancouver and Toronto closer to the time on their schedule.

 

[lenaitch]

VIA's Canadian only stops at some stations if passengers are scheduled for pick up or drop off. Using the Canadian to reach the hinterland of Ontario is very popular during the summer. The current Sudbury-White River train has an entire car dedicated to carrying canoes and bulk items for hunting camps. I've been looking at booking such a trip with friends. The idea is that you take the train into the hinterland, get off at a flag stop (if at night, camp) and ride the river to the end. And either get picked up by a float plane or by a highway. It's not cheap and paying $100 for a canoe is moot when it's an adventure of a lifetime to a place few people have gone.

VIA's service's to/from northern Quebec and Montreal stop at Exo's Sauvé and Anjou stations. Like michael_can said, they use other stations so why not.

The point I make is that loading a canoe would be much easier at Bloomington as opposed to bringing it to Union Station. And those taking the Canadian from the northern GTA would find it more useful than travelling all the way downtown.

Urban Sky, how useful is it to maintain Washago as a station? Bloomington would be a more useful stop than Washago. Honest question, what are the passengers numbers for it?

Good for you. Sounds like an adventure. I agree that schlepping a canoe into downtown Toronto and into Union wouldn't be my idea of fun! I have not done a rail-based canoe trip. I suppose if you have the resources to utilize aircraft or other people's vehicles for pick-up then go for it. Camping at railside: hmmmm.

Have fun if it comes to fruition! It's an amazing part of the world. Take bug spray.

 

[Garuda]

Good for you. Sounds like an adventure. I agree that schlepping a canoe into downtown Toronto and into Union wouldn't be my idea of fun! I have not done a rail-based canoe trip. I suppose if you have the resources to utilize aircraft or other people's vehicles for pick-up then go for it. Camping at railside: hmmmm.

Have fun if it comes to fruition! It's an amazing part of the world. Take bug spray.

If you have a chance, I suggest taking the Sudbury - White River train along CP line. It's a milk run but the train stops at hunt camps, rivers and small communities that are completely isolated or only accessible by a very bumpy logging road. When I took it this summer, I met people taking a canoe to the Spanish river to travel south to Highway 17 and regular hunt camp groups from the GTA (they all drive to Sudbury). They stay in cabins close to the railway and the rail crews are known to blow the horn loudly if they know a cabin is occupied. A 'friendly' hello I guess.

Few luxuries, but if you want to truly want to disconnect, I suggest such a trip!

 

[lenaitch]

If you have a chance, I suggest taking the Sudbury - White River train along CP line. It's a milk run but the train stops at hunt camps, rivers and small communities that are completely isolated or only accessible by a very bumpy logging road. When I took it this summer, I met people taking a canoe to the Spanish river to travel south to Highway 17 and regular hunt camp groups from the GTA (they all drive to Sudbury). They stay in cabins close to the railway and the rail crews are known to blow the horn loudly if they know a cabin is occupied. A 'friendly' hello I guess.

Few luxuries, but if you want to truly want to disconnect, I suggest such a trip!

Thanks. I'm a tad old for canoe tripping now, but have done the French, Pickerel, Magnetawan and other area rivers back in the day. I lived in both the N/E and N/W, run up the Algoma to fishing camps, driven the Sultan Rd. I get back as often as I can but my tripping now is via motorcycle and motels with showers and good beds.

 

[steveintoronto]

@Urban Sky quotes the VIA RFQ:

[...]then the additional trainsets must be capable of both diesel and electric operation (dual-mode) at up to 125 mph, with seamless transition, and bi-directional operation. If the decision on VIA Rail's long term plan and the timeframe to implement this decision is not yet established at the time of the order for the additional trainsets, then the delivery of the additional trainsets could be deferred until the decision and schedule is available.

https://m.viarail.ca/sites/all/files/media/pdfs/About_VIA/new-fleet/VIA Rail_Corridor_Fleet_Renewal_Project_Request_for_Qualifications.pdf
Which leaves open the use of 'dissimilar top and tail'...diesel one end, and when the need arises later, removing the driving trailer the other end, and using an electric loco instead. It would make for a much more flexible bid price, and offer VIA the opportunity to 'hedge their bets' on whether and when the electric would be a needed investment. The driving trailer could either remain as part of the consist, or be replaced or modified into a baggage/passenger coach. It would also be more cost effective as hybrid locos tend to be more than the cost of two discrete ones, and twice the weight. Axle loading could be a very real issue on some of the track. Servicing would also be more problematic with hybrid locos, as a fault in one mode means the entire loco is out of service.

 

[littlewill1166]

Is wheel slip due to leaves an issue on many VIA routes? What routes does VIA have power at both ends?

It is in the fall when the heavier HEP2 stock is being pulled. I saw 2 double-headed P42s between while traveling from Toronto to London and I asked the service manager about it. Most trains on Toronto-Ottawa I've seen are push-pull now along with some trains on in SWO that come from Ottawa earlier in the day. I also overheard on the radio about a loco being added to train 76 so that it would continue as a push-pull unit to Ottawa last week as 48.

 

[steveintoronto]

I get back as often as I can but my tripping now is via motorcycle and motels with showers and good beds.

lol...You don't have to have a lot of money to think at the end of a gruelling trip: "Screw roughing it in a tent, I'll spend $100 bucks to sleep all night in civility with modern comforts, and do the gnarly stuff on the road in daylight."

 

[Urban Sky]

If it was such a concern in this part of the world, then surely the US would doing this? Or GO Transit and other operators with large amounts of acceleration/deceleration? Only Brightline that I'm aware of is doing 'top and tail', and it's for other reasons already detailed. Railjet don't. They use driving trailers (control cab cars), as do a number of other European nations with considerably lusher tree growth than here, and at actual "High Speed" velocities and rates of acceleration.

I'm also not aware of any locomotive-hauled trains anywhere in the world (other than Brightline, obviously) which has locomotives at both ends...

There might be regulatory or some other reason why the Canadian doesn't currently stop in the GTA, or GO service area or some such thing.

I don't recall if it stopped at Barrie or Orillia when it was on the Newmarket sub or, say Alliston or Midhurst when it ran on CP.

The Canadian stopped at Newmarket, Barrie and Orillia until the Newmarket Subdivision was abandonned by CN north of Barrie at the end of 1996:

Source: VIA timetable (effective 1996-04-28)

Interestingly, the Northlander (Toronto-North Bay-Cochrane-Kapuskasing) operated via the Bala Sub until it was cut in 1990 with a stop in Richmond Hill (dropped in 1986) and Beaverton:

Source: VIA timetable (effective 1985-10-27)

Finally, concerning the stops served by the Canadian and the Super Continental prior to their consolidation in October 1978:

Source: VIA timetable (effective 1978-06-01)

 

[44 North]

Which the Charger inherently has.

I don't think anybody is saying they have to look like a bag of potatoes. Designs and aerodynamic considerations have evolved, as have panel materials and moulding technologies. The concern or objection seems to be spending public funds on additions or features solely to make the vehicles look swoopy or sexy. If a certain preferred vehicle comes designed a certain way, so be it. In addition to issues such as environmental vulnerability (snow, ice, etc.) it starts to remind me of this:
View attachment 165616

becoming this:

View attachment 165617

Ah yeah fair enough. I actually didn't know what the train looked like before posting. Personally am not even a fan of rounded fronts. I like hard angles, which VIA's old LRC did very well. Had a wedge-shape V formed in the front that's a bit retro futuristic. Not unlike the Countach, Lotus Esprit, Delorean, Toyota LiteAce van, or perhaps BART's early rolling stock. If that style was brought back, and kept in good condition with new paint, re-glossing, and, regular cleaning, I think it'd make a big impact in centerfold ads.

 

[steveintoronto]

I'm also not aware of any locomotive-hauled trains anywhere in the world (other than Brightline, obviously) which has locomotives at both ends...

Other than High Speed in North Am, and former HST now relegated to local in the UK: (The Class 43)

Future
All HSTs operating with Great Western Railway and London North Eastern Railway will be replaced on their current duties by Class 800/801/802 trains by December 2019. Twenty-six sets each with four or five carriages are to move from Great Western Railway to Abellio ScotRail and be refurbished with controlled emission tanks and plug automatic doors. They will operate on services from Edinburgh and Glasgow to Aberdeen and Inverness.[17][18][19][20] The first two were delivered to Craigentinny TMD for crew training in September 2017.[21] The first entered service in October 2018.[22]

Great Western Railway are to retain 24 powercars to form 11 four-carriage sets for use on local services between Cardiff and Penzance.[23]

GB Railfreight have expressed interest in the possibility of converting displaced HST sets for use carrying parcels and other mail.[24]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_43_(HST)

The hybrid replacements Class 802, are high speed on electric (140 mph), and 110 mph on diesel, the max speed now possible on Cdn rails:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_802

These units, of course, did not make a bid for the VIA RFP. They have no North Am versions, and are pricey, and so far, not a great user review.

Ah yeah fair enough. I actually didn't know what the train looked like before posting.

The 'bullet nose' has become almost cliche, and has no aerodynamic benefit at the speeds the VIA Fleet will be moving at. They're even questionable on High Speed Trains and aircraft, the latest aircraft actually being more 'slippery' with a blunter taper. https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/24414/why-when-is-the-blunt-nose-better I must say the Taurus brothers of the Charger (as used by OBB Railjet) are even better looking with the chisel front, but the Chargers are handsome in what they've done with the chisel look, and highly practical at the same time. Nose cones won't last a week without getting damaged in the environment VIA trains are operated in.

 

[littlewill1166]

I'm also not aware of any locomotive-hauled trains anywhere in the world (other than Brightline, obviously) which has locomotives at both ends...

There's the one you work for, VIA Rail.

Here's an excerpt from page 48 of the 2017-2021 corporate plan indicating push-pull ops from Toronto-Ottawa.

And here is a link to a video from 3 weeks back showing push-pull ops on train 73 which came from Ottawa earlier in the day as train 41 from Ottawa.

 

[robmausser]

I'm also not aware of any locomotive-hauled trains anywhere in the world (other than Brightline, obviously) which has locomotives at both ends...



The Canadian stopped at Newmarket, Barrie and Orillia until the Newmarket Subdivision was abandonned by CN north of Barrie at the end of 1996:
View attachment 165852
Source: VIA timetable (effective 1996-04-28)

Interestingly, the Northlander (Toronto-North Bay-Cochrane-Kapuskasing) operated via the Bala Sub until it was cut in 1990 with a stop in Richmond Hill (dropped in 1986) and Beaverton:
View attachment 165860
Source: VIA timetable (effective 1985-10-27)

Finally, concerning the stops served by the Canadian and the Super Continental prior to their consolidation in October 1978:
View attachment 165861View attachment 165862
Source: VIA timetable (effective 1978-06-01)

Really? Its quite popular. Heres an example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCity_125

Each is made up of two Class 43 power cars, one at each end of six to nine Mark 3 carriages.

 

[steveintoronto]

^ You overlooked this:

Due to the steep grade on the CN Dundas Sub between Mile 0 (Bayview Jct.) and Mile 10 (Copetown) caused by the Niagara Escarpment, in the fall VIA Rail doubles up their motive power on trains destined for London, Windsor and Sarnia, wet leaves fall from the trees and create slick rails only compounding the issue of the already intense grade.

As to the Ottawa trains:

VIA Rail train #43 arrives from Ottawa at the suburban stop in Fallowfield/Barrhaven en route to Toronto. It has in tow the consist of VIA train #32, which deadheads on the back of #43's consist from Ottawa to Fallowfield. The two trains will be split apart, and #32 will then board passengers and return to Ottawa, continuing on to Montreal.

VIA does this on a number of runs.

Really? Its quite popular. Heres an example

I already detailed that in a post. #4,755 It's an *exception* to the norm, and it's HST "High Speed Train". Formerly known as "IC-125" "Intercity 125 mph", formerly known as High Speed when introduced.

The Charger has far more sophisticated traction and motor control and drive than the Genesis. AC motors make a big difference.

As for the Dundas Sub, it's infamous:
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?15,2404574

And why VIA must double up P42s:
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=159199&start=0 Note Dowling's comment on the F40s and the Canadian.