VIA Rail

[MisterF]

Montreal's built form is more traditionally european, which lends itself better to subways. Toronto has a very unique density style of 30 storey apartment tower clusters surround

Toronto's poor subway coverage is because of poor decisions, not built form. Toronto's built form could support several more subway lines, as evidenced by the severe overcrowding on the network. The demand is through the roof, it's just not being met.

Was referring to their proximity to downtown, and referred to their ridership numbers to explain why subway ridership is lower here than in Montreal.

I'd say that Toronto has lower rapid transit ridership because it has worse rapid transit coverage and a smaller rapid transit system. Nothing to do with streetcars.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Except Toronto has a larger rapid transit system than Montreal.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Toronto's poor subway coverage is because of poor decisions, not built form. Toronto's built form could support several more subway lines, as evidenced by the severe overcrowding on the network. The demand is through the roof, it's just not being met.


I'd say that Toronto has lower rapid transit ridership because it has worse rapid transit coverage and a smaller rapid transit system. Nothing to do with streetcars.

You're missing the point. If there were more downtown subway lines, transit users would shift over from streetcars to these subway lines. The streetcar system is almost entirely downtown. That's 300,000 riders per day that choose to use streetcar lines over subway lines because there are so few subway lines downtown (when compared to Montreal). If you built the DRL and it is used by 150K passengers per day, the rapid transit ridership goes up by 150K passengers by serving areas that are currently served by streetcars. In other words, the high ridership of the streetcar network is evidence of transit demand downtown, and if there were more subway lines downtown, then subway ridership would be on par with montreal's.

 

[felix123]

You're missing the point. If there were more downtown subway lines, transit users would shift over from streetcars to these subway lines. The streetcar system is almost entirely downtown. That's 300,000 riders per day that choose to use streetcar lines over subway lines because there are so few subway lines downtown (when compared to Montreal). If you built the DRL and it is used by 150K passengers per day, the rapid transit ridership goes up by 150K passengers by serving areas that are currently served by streetcars. In other words, the high ridership of the streetcar network is evidence of transit demand downtown, and if there were more subway lines downtown, then subway ridership would be on par with montreal's.

Despite Toronto's poor subway coverage, it has very good ridership. That should not be disputed.
However, Montreal is a much smaller city, population-wise. I think no matter how you look at it, Montréal's just a more transit-centric city with a somewhat higher absolute metro ridership, and a much higher per-capita metro ridership.
As for streetcars, with no major plans to dramatically increase the number of subway stations downtown, there are such clear pathways to more rapid travel on streetcars that would greatly improve Toronto's system (i.e. College is well overdue to have its own right-of-way, routes should travel north of Bloor to reduce transfers, etc.)

 

[MisterF]

Except Toronto has a larger rapid transit system than Montreal.

Ah yes, I forgot about the Vaughan extension. So Toronto temporarily has the larger system, but once REM is built Montreal will retake top spot. And by a significant margin too. Whether Toronto ever catches up depends on whether you'd consider RER and Transit City style LRT to be rapid transit. It says a lot about Toronto that we're even having this conversation. It's a much larger and now more densely populated city; it should have by far the largest rapid transit system.

You're missing the point. If there were more downtown subway lines, transit users would shift over from streetcars to these subway lines. The streetcar system is almost entirely downtown. That's 300,000 riders per day that choose to use streetcar lines over subway lines because there are so few subway lines downtown (when compared to Montreal). If you built the DRL and it is used by 150K passengers per day, the rapid transit ridership goes up by 150K passengers by serving areas that are currently served by streetcars. In other words, the high ridership of the streetcar network is evidence of transit demand downtown, and if there were more subway lines downtown, then subway ridership would be on par with montreal's.

I think our points are pretty much the same. I agree, Toronto's rapid transit ridership is so low because it has such a suburb-oriented system with such poor coverage in the centre of the city. Those 300,000 streetcar riders are only the beginning of potential subway ridership in the downtown area since so many people just don't take transit at all because it's so slow, crowded and unreliable. I'd say that if there were more lines downtown, subway ridership would be significantly higher than in Montreal.

Despite Toronto's poor subway coverage, it has very good ridership. That should not be disputed.
However, Montreal is a much smaller city, population-wise. I think no matter how you look at it, Montréal's just a more transit-centric city with a somewhat higher absolute metro ridership, and a much higher per-capita metro ridership.
As for streetcars, with no major plans to dramatically increase the number of subway stations downtown, there are such clear pathways to more rapid travel on streetcars that would greatly improve Toronto's system (i.e. College is well overdue to have its own right-of-way, routes should travel north of Bloor to reduce transfers, etc.)

I don't think Montreal is necessarily more transit-centric, it's just made better decisions with its transit investment. Toronto has been chasing suburban ridership for decades and ignoring downtown, while Montreal has built a more comprehensive, downtown-oriented system. Montreal doesn't have higher ridership because of demand, it has higher ridership because for so long Toronto refused to build rapid transit where the most demand is.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Ah yes, I forgot about the Vaughan extension. So Toronto temporarily has the larger system, but once REM is built Montreal will retake top spot. And by a significant margin too. Whether Toronto ever catches up depends on whether you'd consider RER and Transit City style LRT to be rapid transit. It says a lot about Toronto that we're even having this conversation. It's a much larger and now more densely populated city; it should have by far the largest rapid transit system.

These projects all to be opened by 2025:

1. Eglinton Crosstown LRT (20 km)?
2. Finch West LRT (10 km)?
3. Scarborough Subway Extension (7 km)?
4. GO Transit Lakeshore Electrification (35 km in just Toronto, ~110 km across the entire line),
5. GO Transit Barrie Electrification (20 km in Toronto, ~70 km entire line)?
6. GO Transit Stouffville Line Electrification (20 km in Toronto, 50 km across the entire line)?
7. GO Kitchener Line Electrification (20 km in Toronto, 30 across entire line)?
8. Sheppard East LRT (10 km)?
9. Hurontario LRT (20 km outside Toronto)
10. Hamilton LRT (15 km outside Toronto)
11. Waterloo LRT (20 km outside Toronto)

In Total, this equates to 142km of rapid transit expansion in Toronto alone, and 362 km in the GTA (including Toronto)
Beyond 2025 (or no timeline at this stage):

1. DRL Phase one (8 km)
2. Yonge North Subway (7 km)
3. Sheppard West Subway (4.5 km)
4. Eglinton East (10 km)
5. Eglinton West (12 km)
6. Finch West Extension (10 km)
7. Finch East Extension (7 km)
8. Portlands Expansion & new ROW Streetcar lines (10-30 km)
9. DRL Phase 2 (12 km)
10. DRL Phase 3 (10 km)
11. GO Transit Kitchener Electrification (Additional 80 km, not in Toronto)
12. GO Transit Lakeshore Electrification (Additional 70 km, not in Toronto)
13. GO Transit Milton Electrification (20 km in Toronto, 40 total)
14. GO Transit Richmond Hill Electrification (15 km in Toronto, 40 total)

Overall, that's a 60km increase to the subway network here alone by 2041.

I think our points are pretty much the same. I agree, Toronto's rapid transit ridership is so low because it has such a suburb-oriented system with such poor coverage in the centre of the city. Those 300,000 streetcar riders are only the beginning of potential subway ridership in the downtown area since so many people just don't take transit at all because it's so slow, crowded and unreliable. I'd say that if there were more lines downtown, subway ridership would be significantly higher than in Montreal.

When I lived downtown, I could deal with the streetcars because parking was insane for my family. I imagine most people feel this way.

I don't think Montreal is necessarily more transit-centric, it's just made better decisions with its transit investment. Toronto has been chasing suburban ridership for decades and ignoring downtown, while Montreal has built a more comprehensive, downtown-oriented system. Montreal doesn't have higher ridership because of demand, it has higher ridership because for so long Toronto refused to build rapid transit where the most demand is.

Remeber, it is that suburban demand that allows the subway to be so successful in Toronto. Montreal is built very differently, it is a more dense city in general. Sure, you'll have dense pockets of land Downtown, Midtown (eglinton), Uptown (Sheppard), STC, and along Bloor, but it's so spread out that expanding everywhere is a huge challenge. The suburbs here are the equivalent of a downtown there. It's why GO Transit is significantly busier than RTM.

 

[felix123]

I don't think Montreal is necessarily more transit-centric, it's just made better decisions with its transit investment. Toronto has been chasing suburban ridership for decades and ignoring downtown, while Montreal has built a more comprehensive, downtown-oriented system. Montreal doesn't have higher ridership because of demand, it has higher ridership because for so long Toronto refused to build rapid transit where the most demand is.

Montreal is absolutely more transit-centric than Toronto, although the reason for that may have more to do with poverty than European sensibility. It's nice to see how much better Mtl's economy has been doing for the past 3 years or so - it's always had a better work/play balance than Toronto, but the fact is that far fewer people there have been able to afford a car (or two!) than in Toronto. There's no contesting the terrible unemployment and shuttered storefronts in the Montreal of the 90's and 2000's.

 

[dowlingm]

Can we move the rapid transit discussion/merits of Montreal vs Toronto elsewhere?

 

[MisterF]

^I'm fine with the mods moving these posts into another thread if they feel it's appropriate.

These projects all to be opened by 2025:

1. Eglinton Crosstown LRT (20 km)?
2. Finch West LRT (10 km)?
3. Scarborough Subway Extension (7 km)?
4. GO Transit Lakeshore Electrification (35 km in just Toronto, ~110 km across the entire line),
5. GO Transit Barrie Electrification (20 km in Toronto, ~70 km entire line)?
6. GO Transit Stouffville Line Electrification (20 km in Toronto, 50 km across the entire line)?
7. GO Kitchener Line Electrification (20 km in Toronto, 30 across entire line)?
8. Sheppard East LRT (10 km)?
9. Hurontario LRT (20 km outside Toronto)
10. Hamilton LRT (15 km outside Toronto)
11. Waterloo LRT (20 km outside Toronto)

In Total, this equates to 142km of rapid transit expansion in Toronto alone, and 362 km in the GTA (including Toronto)
Beyond 2025 (or no timeline at this stage):

1. DRL Phase one (8 km)
2. Yonge North Subway (7 km)
3. Sheppard West Subway (4.5 km)
4. Eglinton East (10 km)
5. Eglinton West (12 km)
6. Finch West Extension (10 km)
7. Finch East Extension (7 km)
8. Portlands Expansion & new ROW Streetcar lines (10-30 km)
9. DRL Phase 2 (12 km)
10. DRL Phase 3 (10 km)
11. GO Transit Kitchener Electrification (Additional 80 km, not in Toronto)
12. GO Transit Lakeshore Electrification (Additional 70 km, not in Toronto)
13. GO Transit Milton Electrification (20 km in Toronto, 40 total)
14. GO Transit Richmond Hill Electrification (15 km in Toronto, 40 total)

Overall, that's a 60km increase to the subway network here alone by 2041.


When I lived downtown, I could deal with the streetcars because parking was insane for my family. I imagine most people feel this way.



Remeber, it is that suburban demand that allows the subway to be so successful in Toronto. Montreal is built very differently, it is a more dense city in general. Sure, you'll have dense pockets of land Downtown, Midtown (eglinton), Uptown (Sheppard), STC, and along Bloor, but it's so spread out that expanding everywhere is a huge challenge. The suburbs here are the equivalent of a downtown there. It's why GO Transit is significantly busier than RTM.

The surface part of Eglinton, Finch, and Hurontario LRT aren't rapid transit. Closer to it than the downtown streetcars, but if it stops are red lights then it's not rapid transit. I'd personally call RER rapid transit but a lot of purists wouldn't. Hamilton and Kitchener aren't even in the same metropolitan area. And 60 km of subway by 2041 is good but not mind blowing. Montreal's REM alone is 67 km all by itself.

The only reason we think of suburban demand driving the TTC subway's success is because that's the only place we've expanded it in most of our lifetimes. It was successful long before it expanded into the suburbs and the highest demand is downtown. Toronto is now more densely populated than Montreal thanks to the massive amounts of infill development in the last 15 years. There's nothing about Toronto's built form that makes it difficult to serve by subway. As I said before, the Yonge line overcrowding is proof of that.

Yes, most people can deal with the streetcars, but most people would also tell you that the subway needs to be expanded downtown.

Montreal is absolutely more transit-centric than Toronto, although the reason for that may have more to do with poverty than European sensibility. It's nice to see how much better Mtl's economy has been doing for the past 3 years or so - it's always had a better work/play balance than Toronto, but the fact is that far fewer people there have been able to afford a car (or two!) than in Toronto. There's no contesting the terrible unemployment and shuttered storefronts in the Montreal of the 90's and 2000's.

The Line 1 platform at Yonge-Bloor station is actually busier than any equivalent in New York. The Sixth and Lexington subways in New York are busier than Line 1, but only if you combine all the branches. The fact we have such a small system and such comparisons can even be made shows that we're a very transit oriented city and we've done a terrible job capitalizing on that. The per capita transit ridership in Toronto and Montreal is basically equal, and if you include GO and RTM it's quite a bit higher in Toronto. If our subway were more extensive in central areas instead of expanding so much in the suburbs it would have higher ridership.

 

[crs1026]

For those watching the CP strike - I got a call this morning from VIA because I had a reservation with some other people for the Sudbury-White River RDC for this weekend. With CP down to the wire with its union negotiations, VIA is not certain that this train will operate this weekend. I was given the opportunity of cancelling my prepaid ticket with full refund, which my little group of travellers is electing to do.

From a back channel source - while VIA and CP might be able to physically operate trains in a strike using management personnel, this labour dispute includes the signal maintainers, and VIA can't or won't operate trains without assurance that the signals are ok. I don't know if this approach affects GO on the Milton line also.

Anyways, the response from VIA was pretty proactive, and when I checked around everybody was on the same page. VIA is a pretty effective customer service operation, even if we wish the tracks and trains were better and more frequent.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

From a back channel source - while VIA and CP might be able to physically operate trains in a strike using management personnel, this labour dispute includes the signal maintainers, and VIA can't or won't operate trains without assurance that the signals are ok. I don't know if this approach affects GO on the Milton line also.

Anyways, the response from VIA was pretty proactive, and when I checked around everybody was on the same page. VIA is a pretty effective customer service operation, even if we wish the tracks and trains were better and more frequent.

- Paul

Thank you for your understanding and I hope you and your friends will get a second chance to ride this underutilized VIA service...

 

[dowlingm]

Thank you for your understanding and I hope you and your friends will get a second chance to ride this underutilized VIA service...

One of the things I would like to see in a situation where Ontario and VIA actually cooperated would be the extension of the White River service back to North Bay.

 

[micheal_can]

One of the things I would like to see in a situation where Ontario and VIA actually cooperated would be the extension of the White River service back to North Bay.

And extended to Thunder Bay?

 

[mdrejhon]

The surface part of Eglinton, Finch, and Hurontario LRT aren't rapid transit. Closer to it than the downtown streetcars, but if it stops are red lights then it's not rapid transit.

It is my understanding that they are planning GPS triggered ahead-of-time traffic signal light priority, so that the 90 meter linked trains get priority over cars, and rarely have to stop at a red light. there will never be cars in front of the LRVs.

The devil is in the details of implementation but elsewhere in the world, there are definitely some LRTs that meet rapid transit specifications through traffic-light intersections.

So, yes, surface sections could still be rapid transit specifications by international average-speed standards as long as the transit priority is good.

 

[MisterF]

It is my understanding that they are planning GPS triggered ahead-of-time traffic signal light priority, so that the 90 meter linked trains get priority over cars, and rarely have to stop at a red light. there will never be cars in front of the LRVs.

The devil is in the details of implementation but elsewhere in the world, there are definitely some LRTs that meet rapid transit specifications through traffic-light intersections.

So, yes, surface sections could still be rapid transit specifications by international average-speed standards as long as the transit priority is good.

I still share some other forumers' skepticism but I hope you're right!