VIA Rail

[lenaitch]

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/docproject/...sion-to-save-the-train-to-churchill-1.4604789

Good luck to them and I wish them well in their quest, but I've often been confused by the nature of business partnerships involving First Nations, be they railways, power plants or whatever. Normal business partnerships involve the parties putting up either capital or debt - which is backed by assets. If the venture goes belly up, assets are liquidated and/or debts called by the lender to recover losses. Seeing as most first nation territories, and most of the real estate and other hard assets, are essentially 'in trust' from the federal government, there are few liquid assets. Are these ventures not essentially public funds through another channel? I realize some Nations contain private enterprises, but they are mostly larger southern ones, and some western ones collect resource royalties, but most of the remote northern territories I have been on are dirt poor and have no viable economic base.

I'm not arguing the concept, but it seems like there is a lack of transparency regarding who is putting up the risk.

 

[felix123]

Well...you gotta give bbr something or else they'll be whining and crying for more bailouts...

Reminds me of Alstom, when they whined and cried their way into being included in Montréal's AZUR metro contract, only to be the cause of major delays when the software for which they were responsible was riddled with bugs and threw the whole project off schedule.

 

[aquateam]

It worked out well enough in the end for the city of Montreal, since the delays meant that Bombardier had to pay penalties. The city is getting 2 "free" metro cars out of the deal, 54 instead of 52. It would be good if Toronto could get a few extra streetcars out of the delays, they could use every extra one they could get.

 

[felix123]

It worked out well enough in the end for the city of Montreal, since the delays meant that Bombardier had to pay penalties. The city is getting 2 "free" metro cars out of the deal, 54 instead of 52. It would be good if Toronto could get a few extra streetcars out of the delays, they could use every extra one they could get.

Yes, the STM and Bombardier did come to that deal in the end and with AZURs essentially back on schedule, everybody seems to be fairly happy at this point.

 

[nfitz]

It worked out well enough in the end for the city of Montreal, since the delays meant that Bombardier had to pay penalties. The city is getting 2 "free" metro cars out of the deal, 54 instead of 52. It would be good if Toronto could get a few extra streetcars out of the delays, they could use every extra one they could get.

The contract is with both Bombardier and Alstom.

Are you sure it's Bombardier that had to pay penalties, and not Alstom? And are you sure they were related to delays, and not other issues?

I'm surprised it's only 2 cars - kind of piddling given they have 9 cars in a train there.

 

[Urban Sky]

I'm surprised it's only 2 cars - kind of piddling given they have 9 cars in a train there.

Considering that 54 cars would translate into only 6 trains (of 9 cars each), the figures obviously relate to trains rather than "cars"...

 

[nfitz]

Considering that 54 cars would translate into only 6 trains (of 9 cars each), the figures obviously relate to trains rather than "cars"...

I'm supposed to assume that? There's nothing to indicate in the post, that the 54 cars weren't part of some add-on to the order - six 9-car trains I'd assumed.

The whole Azur order was only 54 trainsets? Is that enough for a single line? Compare to TTC that has 76 trainsets for Line 1 and 62 trainsets for Line 2 (plus 7 for Line 3, and 6 for Line 4). Gosh reading now, the original 1963 stock was only 37⅓ nine-car trainsets and the 1973 stock was only 47 nine-car trainsets! Given the train lengths are only slightly longer than a six-car TTC train, but significantly narrower ... I fail to understand how Montreal always reports higher Metro ridership than Toronto. More circumstantial evidence to support my long-held suspicion that STM's ridership numbers are flawed.

It's always difficult to figure out when someone is talking out of their imagination, which parts of their post might be correct, and which parts might be wrong. So many inaccurate statements here. 2 cars. New plant built for Azur. Bombardier paying penalties. Who knows what's real and what isn't ...

No they built a new assembly plant next to their existing Sorel-Tracy facilities.

So just outside Montreal (commuting distance), rather than 400 km away in La Pocatière in the Bas-St-Laurent. That makes more sense. Not sure why people post things that just can't be true! Why would Alstom build a factory in La Pocatière of all places. That would be like Alstom building the new Citadis plant in Thunder Bay (as opposed to Brampton).

 

[Urban Sky]

I'm supposed to assume that? There's nothing to indicate in the post, that the 54 cars weren't part of some add-on to the order - six 9-car trains I'd assumed.

Yes, the comment inaccurately stated "cars" instead of "trains", which you would have been able to check in less than two seconds by simply clicking on the linked source and reading its headline:

Montreal's STM to receive two free Azur métro trains
The consortium supplying trains delivered the first six late, so they were liable to pay a penalty; the STM opted for two free trains.

JASON MAGDER, MONTREAL GAZETTE

Actually, just hovering your mouse over the linked text would have already answered your question (by revealing the URL):
http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/montreals-stm-to-receive-two-free-azur-metro-trains

The whole Azur order was only 54 trainsets? Is that enough for a single line? Compare to TTC that has 76 trainsets for Line 1 and 62 trainsets for Line 2 (plus 7 for Line 3, and 6 for Line 4). Gosh reading now, the original 1963 stock was only 37⅓ nine-car trainsets and the 1973 stock was only 47 nine-car trainsets! Given the train lengths are only slightly longer than a six-car TTC train, but significantly narrower ... I fail to understand how Montreal always reports higher Metro ridership than Toronto. More circumstantial evidence to support my long-held suspicion that STM's ridership numbers are flawed.

Again, the article clearly states that the Azur trains are intended to replace the oldest fleet (and for that job the order size is more than enough):

The STM now has 35 of the Azur model trains, and is receiving them at a pace of two per month. Currently, 29 of the 36 trains on the Orange Line are Azur trains, and in the next few months all the trains on that line will be the new ones. Since October, two Azur trains have been running on the Green Line.
Azur trains also will be running on the Blue Line by the time they are all delivered. The STM is continuously retiring the oldest trains in its fleet, the MR-63s, which are 50 years old, dating back to the métro’s inauguration in 1966.

It's always difficult to figure out when someone is talking out of their imagination, which parts of their post might be correct, and which parts might be wrong. So many inaccurate statements here. 2 cars. New plant built for Azur. Bombardier paying penalties. Who knows what's real and what isn't ...

At least he bothered to provide sources which clarify the inaccuracy in his claim, whereas your rant includes countless claims, which are much more difficult to verify, given the absence of any sources or references...

 

[aquateam]

I'm surprised it's only 2 cars - kind of piddling given they have 9 cars in a train there.

Yes, the comment inaccurately stated "cars" instead of "trains"

Ah, thanks for the correction about terminology, by "cars" I meant "trains." The Azur trains are open-gangway so I don't know how you would split them up exactly, so the distinction wasn't meaningful to me, especially since most of the articles I read about it are in french and say "wagon." Montreal will be getting 54 instead of 52. According to the article, it's due to delays (typical Bombardier.)

And apparently because Bombardier didn't get the REM contract, the province is looking to buy more Azur trains/accelerate the replacement of old trains in order to keep the La Pocatiere plant busy.

 

[dowlingm]

Seems they split the business for rebuilding the HEP I coach fleet between Bombardier and CAD. CAD gets to rebuild the 25 ex-CP coaches.

Press Release here

- Paul

Poster on CPTDB claims Montreal Maintenance Centre will be refurbing 33 other coaches - no other details as yet.

 

[Urban Sky]

Poster on CPTDB claims Montreal Maintenance Centre will be refurbing 33 other coaches - no other details as yet.

No idea if it talks about the same 33 cars, but from yesterday's press release:

The contracts with Cad and Bombardier are in addition to 33 cars currently under renovation, and the other cars that were converted over the past years by VIA Rail’s Montreal Maintenance Centre experts.

Edit to add:
"Les ateliers de VIA Rail à Pointe-Saint-Charles se chargeront de la rénovation de 33 autres voitures pour un coût non divulgué. Il restera ensuite la réfection « des wagons-lits et des voitures-restaurants »."
http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2018/04/10/via-rail-fait-du-neuf-avec-du-vieux

 

[steveintoronto]

^

Transport Minister Marc Garneau was in Lachine Tuesday to announce the award of a $ 46 million contract to CAD Industries for the repair of 25 cars.Last week, VIA Rail selected Bombardier for the refurbishment of 17 cars at a cost of $ 54 million.

"These cars are stainless steel, they will have decades of life ahead of them with the refurbishment," Garneau said. They ride on the Toronto-Vancouver and Montreal-Jonquière lines.

On the other hand, trains running between Quebec City and Windsor, the 97 "LRC" cars built by Bombardier from 1981 to 1984, and the 47 "Renaissance" cars from 1995-1996 bought in the United Kingdom in 2000, can not be modernized.

security

"These cars are coming to the end of their lives," said the minister. They must be replaced for security reasons. "

The recent federal budget gave VIA Rail the go-ahead for a tender that is likely to exceed $ 1 billion. The new cars will not be able to run at high speed, Ottawa having put this old project on the ice.

They must be put into service between 2022 and 2024. Bombardier Transportation, which operates plants in La Pocatière and Thunder Bay, is far from assured of getting their hands on the money.

"It will be open," noted Marc Garneau. When it's a contract run by a crown corporation, the Government of Canada has to make the call for tender internationally, that's part of our obligation to not only the NAFTA, but also from the World Trade Organization. "

As new

In the case of old stainless steel cars, VIA Rail has contracted Bombardier to repair 17 of them, which will be completely transformed to become accessible to passengers with reduced mobility. CAD will repair less complex 25 cars whose interior will still be completely redone and will have a wi-fi system.

"They will be like new at the end," says CAD CEO Fausto Levy. According to him, it costs half as much to renovate old cars as to buy new ones.

The VIA Rail workshops in Pointe-Saint-Charles will be responsible for the renovation of 33 other cars at an undisclosed cost. It will then remain the rehabilitation of "sleeper cars and dining cars".

CAD has some 400 employees in Lachine and 150 in Toronto, Oshawa and Calgary. In 2015, the Japanese conglomerate Sojitz acquired a 41% stake in the company founded 50 years ago.

https://translate.google.ca/transla...a-rail-fait-du-neuf-avec-du-vieux&prev=search

Reference to the rolling stock details aside, note the recurrent reference to *Trade Law* in recent VIA procurement announcements. That's not just by chance. That's there as part of the government's message. And as well as interprovincial and Nafta, it pertains to the EU as well, via CETA.

In fact, re-reading it, Garneau mentions "internationally".

the Government of Canada has to make the call for tender internationally, that's part of our obligation to not only the NAFTA, but also from the World Trade Organization. "

That's code for Asia. And it's a reminder to Trump...

 

[cplchanb]

^

https://translate.google.ca/transla...a-rail-fait-du-neuf-avec-du-vieux&prev=search

Reference to the rolling stock details aside, note the recurrent reference to *Trade Law* in recent VIA procurement announcements. That's not just by chance. That's there as part of the government's message. And as well as interprovincial and Nafta, it pertains to the EU as well, via CETA.

In fact, re-reading it, Garneau mentions "internationally".
That's code for Asia.

I just despise the "quality" SS shells being used as an excuse to just stay pat with mid 20th century equipment... by his calculations by the time he sees them fit for replacement is when hes either dead or the cars have reached 100 years old. Its not like the B52 where their usefulness and economy are unmatched. They can keep 1 set for historic purposes but in order to remain relevant in the coming years they need to modernise!

 

[nfitz]

Yes, the comment inaccurately stated "cars" instead of "trains", which you would have been able to check in less than two seconds by simply clicking on the linked source and reading its headline:

I'm not sure why you are going on about defending someone else's error, instead of focusing on the main point. How does the Montreal Metro carry far more passengers than the Toronto subway, with far less trainsets, that don't quite hold as many people?

 

[crs1026]

The reference to 33 cars to be refurbished internally just happens to line up with the number of HEP II cars remaining in service.... which while stainless steel have an earlier style carbody that is known to be wearing out. Hmmm.

- Paul