VIA Rail

[felix123]

I'm not sure why you are going on about defending someone else's error, instead of focusing on the main point. How does the Montreal Metro carry far more passengers than the Toronto subway, with far less trainsets, that don't quite hold as many people?

I think this is at the point of getting completely off-topic, so I apologize for continuing this tangent. Perhaps Montreal's metro makes up a greater percentage of its ridership during the off-peak period, relative to Toronto's?
I believe Montrealers also rely, and I really mean rely on the STM more than Torontonians rely on the TTC. In Toronto it still appears to be that the standard way of life for young people is to own/lease a car. In Montreal, I feel that cars are not as much as a given. I accept that this is mainly conjecture, but perhaps some ideas to consider nevertheless.

 

[felix123]

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/robert-waite/via-rail-delay-high-speed-rail_a_23386483/

Glad to see that this opinion (that Canada majorly underinvests in rail transportation) is being noticed by the mainstream.

 

[aquateam]

I'm not sure why you are going on about defending someone else's error, instead of focusing on the main point. How does the Montreal Metro carry far more passengers than the Toronto subway, with far less trainsets, that don't quite hold as many people?

I would be skeptical too, except that the STM has a much better handle on passenger counts than the TTC does. For every leg of my trips in Montreal I need to tap on with my Opus card, and that information is logged automatically and electronically. This ridership data is (sometimes) openly shared for analysis.

In contrast, only a small portion of TTC rides can be directly measured. All the direct subway to streetcar/bus transfers, the proof of payment, and the metropass flashing is not measured, not to mention the rife fare evasion with the new presto gates. Instead they rely on infrequent (every couple years) manual passenger counts and trip diaries from metropass holders. In other words, the error bars on TTC ridership are at least an order of magnitude higher than for the STM.

Maybe the issue isn't that the STM is overcounting their ridership: it's that the TTC is undercounting theirs.

Anyways, to stay on topic, here is some personal data I collected about the cost of Toronto to Montreal train prices through Via Rail.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Yes this is Amtrak, but I’ll post the links anyways. Very rare mileage for rare Amtrak locomotive on the Maple Leaf:

http://www.railpictures.ca/?attachment_id=33012
http://www.railpictures.ca/?attachment_id=33016

 

[Streety McCarface]

I'm not sure why you are going on about defending someone else's error, instead of focusing on the main point. How does the Montreal Metro carry far more passengers than the Toronto subway, with far less trainsets, that don't quite hold as many people?

They might be including transfers, ie, a trip on the blue line east, south on the orange line, and further east on the green line, might be counted as 3 trips. If you count the TTC trips this way, ridership is pretty equal as well.

 

[Urban Sky]

They might be including transfers, ie, a trip on the blue line east, south on the orange line, and further east on the green line, might be counted as 3 trips. If you count the TTC trips this way, ridership is pretty equal as well.

What about: three Subway lines serving downtown (green, orange, yellow) rather than just one and a surface network which (very unlike Toronto) lacks the frequencies and capacity for Transit to be attractive beyond the Subway? I think I've never had to wait more than 10 minutes in Toronto for the next bus or these lovely Streetcars (I rarely have to wait more than 5), even at times where virtually the entire STM network operates at frequencies in excess of 20 minutes. The only downsides are the antique payment system (haven't seen Tokens outside of Toronto since my last visit to Russia in 2001), the lack of and the lack of mobile phone reception (at least on the University-Yonge line)...

 

[Streety McCarface]

What about: three Subway lines serving downtown (green, orange, yellow) rather than just one and a surface network which (very unlike Toronto) lacks the frequencies and capacity for Transit to be attractive beyond the Subway? I think I've never had to wait more than 10 minutes in Toronto for the next bus or these lovely Streetcars (I rarely have to wait more than 5), even at times where virtually the entire STM network operates at frequencies in excess of 20 minutes. The only downsides are the antique payment system (haven't seen Tokens outside of Toronto since my last visit to Russia in 2001), the lack of and the lack of mobile phone reception (at least on the University-Yonge line)...

You could argue that Toronto has 3 subway lines serving downtown Toronto as well (Bloor, University, Yonge) and that the service pattern simply dictates that downtown is only served by 2 subway lines. Weirdly enough, 300K people use the downtown streetcars on a daily basis, and if you factor that into the TTC ridership, STM and TTC "rapid" ridership are almost equal.

TBH, the tokens are the best part of the TTC. You can basically use them as their own currency between friends and they're less likely to be damaged or lost when compared to tickets. They're also reminiscent of a better time...

 

[Allandale25]

Press release today on Corridor RFQ: https://twitter.com/j_fauteux/status/986002365999407105?s=19

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Press release today on Corridor RFQ: https://twitter.com/j_fauteux/status/986002365999407105?s=19

More details listed below:

VIA RAIL LAUNCHES RFQ TO REPLACE ITS QUEBEC-WINDSOR CORRIDOR FLEET

Key Dates in Procurement Process:

PHASE 1 – REQUEST FOR QUALIFICATIONS (RFQ)

• RFQ Release: April 16, 2018
• RFQ Submission Deadline: June 6, 2018 at 2:00 PM EDT
• RFQ Response Evaluation Completion: June 2018

PHASE 2 – REQUEST FOR PROPOSAL (RFP)

• RFP Release to Shortlisted Proponents: June 2018
• Proposal Submission Deadline: September/October 2018
• Contract Award: December 2018

Also, on MERX, the RFQ lists relevant trade agreements that apply to the tender. Euro train sets? I wish. https://www.merx4.merx.com/public/solicitations/736693768/abstract

Agreement Type
Canada-European Union Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement(CETA)

Agreement Type 2
Canada-Peru Free Trade Agreement (CPFTA)

Agreement Type 3
Canadian Free Trade Agreement (CFTA)

Agreement Type 4
North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA)

Agreement Type 5
World Trade Organization Agreement on Government Procurement (WTO-AGP)

 

[nfitz]

They might be including transfers, ie, a trip on the blue line east, south on the orange line, and further east on the green line, might be counted as 3 trips. If you count the TTC trips this way, ridership is pretty equal as well.

I believe the APTA data is generally unlinked trips. So it should be comparable.

Maybe the issue isn't that the STM is overcounting their ridership: it's that the TTC is undercounting theirs.

Ah, now that's an interesting thought - with interesting ramifications. If that's the case, then TTC will see increasing disparities between their traditional ridership estimates, and the Presto data, until at some point they have to reconcile everything. Oddly, I hadn't considered this - but it might make more sense than Montreal conflating things. And in Toronto it could be that the total linked trips are not a bad estimate, but the trip legs are underestimated

Anyways, to stay on topic ...

Sorry, the only time I ride the Metro in downtown Montreal these days is to connect to VIA.

You could argue that Toronto has 3 subway lines serving downtown Toronto as well (Bloor, University, Yonge) and that the service pattern simply dictates that downtown is only served by 2 subway lines.

Well you could, but one of those Montreal lines is the 3-station yellow line, that carries only about 50,000 a day - about the same as the Sheppard subway - or the SRT before they reduced service.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I believe the APTA data is generally unlinked trips. So it should be comparable.

Well you could, but one of those Montreal lines is the 3-station yellow line, that carries only about 50,000 a day - about the same as the Sheppard subway - or the SRT before they reduced service.

I really just wish Montreal would release ridership data per line. Toronto also needs to give out more recent statistics.

Who would've thought...they have their stubway, yet they don't bitch about it .

 

[MisterF]

You could argue that Toronto has 3 subway lines serving downtown Toronto as well (Bloor, University, Yonge) and that the service pattern simply dictates that downtown is only served by 2 subway lines. Weirdly enough, 300K people use the downtown streetcars on a daily basis, and if you factor that into the TTC ridership, STM and TTC "rapid" ridership are almost equal.

There's no way that streetcar ridership should be grouped into rapid transit ridership numbers. The streetcars are better than buses but they're in no way rapid transit. Montreal has simply done a better job at building real rapid transit and covers its central area better than Toronto has.

 

[dowlingm]

The timeline for the RFQ seems quite aggressive. Hopefully they can thread the needle and avoid a delaying appeal by a non-Sieme... er... an unsuccessful bidder.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Montreal's built form is more traditionally european, which lends itself better to subways. Toronto has a very unique density style of 30 storey apartment tower clusters surround

The timeline for the RFQ seems quite aggressive. Hopefully they can thread the needle and avoid a delaying appeal by a non-Sieme... er... an unsuccessful bidder.

It's quick as they are looking for relatively off the rack product. It's not like a large infrastructure project that requires months of design and costing estimates to respond to a RFP.

 

[Streety McCarface]

There's no way that streetcar ridership should be grouped into rapid transit ridership numbers. The streetcars are better than buses but they're in no way rapid transit. Montreal has simply done a better job at building real rapid transit and covers its central area better than Toronto has.

Was referring to their proximity to downtown, and referred to their ridership numbers to explain why subway ridership is lower here than in Montreal.