VIA Rail

[steveintoronto]

quite a bit of land has been sold off,

The RoW remains intact. I did a comprehensive search on this months back, and the only private sale (not to another level of government) that I could find is to Bell Communications (two stretches) and that's with provisos to maintain access and retain the corridor, and make it available to other users, which they do, including the Trans Canada Trail. If you could provide examples otherwise, I'd be most grateful, since I searched deeply and studied the length to where the line meets CP again at the NE end, and it's all intact as a RoW. Doing a deal with Trans-Canada Trail will be awkward socially, but not legally, as they only have right of access, not ownership. As for Bell, under various acts (Telecommunications, Rail, Transport, etc) they have to make their sections available to access for all legitimate users. It won't be a problem.

I'm still cynical that this is really feasible at any decent speed (such as matching the current travel time to Ottawa). They replaced this slow alignment over 100 years ago for a reason. I have to wonder if someone has sold VIA a monorail.

First off, VIA have never stated they wanted to or intended to *own* the RoW. D-S has been meticulous from the get-go that VIA will (gist) "Own the rolling stock", ostensibly through the Gov't of Canada. The RoW is to be a private concern, and there's far less challenges using this alignment than there are to establish a *dedicated* passenger line along the Lakeshore route.

I'm sure we'll be hearing a lot more on the details in the next few weeks, since the 'date with Morneau' is imminent.

I'll speak on D-S' behalf since Urban Sky isn't here to do it: (gist)
"It's sharing track with freight that is the cause of almost all delays, not the equipment or routing".

Price the infrastructure cost of a dedicated passenger line from Toronto to Montreal along the Lakeshore, and tell me it will be cheaper than the route through Peterborough!

 

[crs1026]

Price the infrastructure cost of a dedicated passenger line from Toronto to Montreal along the Lakeshore, and tell me it will be cheaper than the route through Peterborough!

Here's a statistic for you. On the Havelock line, between Tapscott Rd and Glen Tay, there are 165 level crossings (public crossings, not counting farmers' laneways etc). Of these, 11 are grade separated. The remaining 154 are not. 62 of the 165 are currently dormant, ie they are in the zone east of Havelock where there are no tracks.

In contrast, between Oshawa and Brockville stations on the Kingston Sub, there are 150 grade crossings. 74 of these are grade separated.

This speaks to just how much public money has been invested in this line, on the premise that this is where the high frequency and highest speeds will be found. The parallel CP line has far fewer grade separations despite roughly as frequent a freight operation as CN over the years. It's clearly the passenger business that drove many of those grade separations.

Havelock Sub roads aren't busy, you say? Perhaps, but enough of those crossings have poor sightlines and would have to be reengineered just to meet the current TC standard for a lights-and-gates at grade crossing. Otherwise, track speeds would be restricted.

It makes no sense to go backwards and put the fastest busiest passenger activity on the least developed line. Similarly, the CN line has the best maintenance over the years, so adding more segments of triple track will be far cheaper than refurbishing the Havelock line. Directional running would free up the track to permit VIA to run much more efficiently. The price to the railways to incent this might be in the hundreds of millions, but it wouldn't be in the billions.

D-S has done a good job of boosting this project but the idea that this will be a public-private partnership cuts both ways. At a time when Ottawa is falling all over itself to spend gobs of money on infrastructure, it can't bring itself to support this project. I'm thinking they are happy to see D-S climb further out on the limb with this, and are eagerly awaiting the broken branch.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

Havelock Sub roads aren't busy, you say? Perhaps, but enough of those crossings have poor sightlines and would have to be reengineered just to meet the current TC standard for a lights-and-gates at grade crossing. Otherwise, track speeds would be restricted.

That's been a given from the start.

It makes no sense to go backwards and put the fastest busiest passenger activity on the least developed line.

It makes perfect sense, not the least because much of the region this goes through is of a far lower population density than the Lakeshore, and *far fewer* crossings to deal with.

Similarly, the CN line has the best maintenance over the years, so adding more segments of triple track will be far cheaper than refurbishing the Havelock line.

CN has had every opportunity to present a project proposition over the years. CN is the one to state: "No catenary on CN tracks". CN shows no inclination of co-operating on this. Not only that, you're talking massive investments in bridge infrastructure, let alone dedicated track since CN is not about to share freight tracks with passenger precedence. So where is the savings in doing Lakeshore? Is this to be a totally separate track or not?

At a time when Ottawa is falling all over itself to spend gobs of money on infrastructure, it can't bring itself to support this project.

I see you haven't been following the money on this lately. Not only has very little actually been committed by the Feds, it now looks like it's going to be released through the Investment Bank, ostensibly with Investor multipliers on top of the 'seed' money and Federal fiat in getting projects to happen via extant legislation (various acts as discussed in detail here prior).

lol...you really don't like the idea this might just happen, do you?

 

[smallspy]

The RoW remains intact. I did a comprehensive search on this months back, and the only private sale (not to another level of government) that I could find is to Bell Communications (two stretches) and that's with provisos to maintain access and retain the corridor, and make it available to other users, which they do, including the Trans Canada Trail. If you could provide examples otherwise, I'd be most grateful, since I searched deeply and studied the length to where the line meets CP again at the NE end, and it's all intact as a RoW. Doing a deal with Trans-Canada Trail will be awkward socially, but not legally, as they only have right of access, not ownership. As for Bell, under various acts (Telecommunications, Rail, Transport, etc) they have to make their sections available to access for all legitimate users. It won't be a problem.

Go through the town of Tweed and tell me that it won't be a problem. Or Glen Tay.

The majority of the land is still available, yes. But that doesn't mean that it's ALL available.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[robmausser]

lol...you really don't like the idea this might just happen, do you?

Definitely a case of sour grapes, lol.

 

[robmausser]

Similarly, the CN line has the best maintenance over the years, so adding more segments of triple track will be far cheaper than refurbishing the Havelock line.

The last time (mid 2000's-2012) that Via helped pay for triple tracking on the CN line it shot them in the foot. CN just used the triple track to increase freight frequency, and train speeds and punctuality for VIA actually got worse.

They would be unwise to continue to do the same thing again.

 

[steveintoronto]

Go through the town of Tweed and tell me that it won't be a problem. Or Glen Tay.

The majority of the land is still available, yes. But that doesn't mean that it's ALL available.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Here's the Google map satellite view:
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Tw...434277d110d680!8m2!3d44.4747294!4d-77.3102478

If that's the extent of your quibble, then hangnails are terminal. That's the best you've got? Seriously?

 

[steveintoronto]

The last time (mid 2000's-2012) that Via helped pay for triple tracking on the CN line it shot them in the foot. CN just used the triple track to increase freight frequency, and train speeds and punctuality for VIA actually got worse.

They would be unwise to continue to do the same thing again.

Indeed, and D-S and many others have stated exactly that. CN would have made an offer years ago if they seriously wished the best for VIA. CN has been a parasite for too long. In a way, who could blame them for sucking taxpayer blood? No-one at the helm of VIA or in MoT has had the guts to make a stand before.

Definitely a case of sour grapes, lol.

Doubtless...

Lots of prior discussion in this forum at http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/via-rail.21060/page-46 and later. CN and CP flat out refuse to allow electrification on main lines likely to host double stack container trains. I can't blame them, they're over 17' from the rails, which is where standard NA height for catenary is. So how exactly is either going to hose electric passenger on their Lakeshore lines? Not to mention D-S' repeated reference to "existing or abandoned RoWs".

It's all been discussed prior, and reference clearly posted. Some cynics have short memories...

[...]As recently as the end of 2015, Via purchased the Smiths Falls to Brockville portion of the line from CP, after investing some $C 20m in tenant improvements over the years, including new passing tracks, curve realignments and centralised traffic control. CP retains its Smiths Falls freight yard and running rights to connect with its Montreal - Toronto main line. That, perhaps, is a model for additional purchases of under-utilised freight lines between Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto. Via anticipates acquiring a mixture of low-traffic freight lines and abandoned rights-of-way.[...]

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...partnership-for-toronto-montreal-upgrade.html

 

[crs1026]

That's been a given from the start.

It makes perfect sense, not the least because much of the region this goes through is of a far lower population density than the Lakeshore, and *far fewer* crossings to deal with.

Please reread my point. The Havelock has MORE crossings, almost all of them at grade. That profile is not a recipe for a high quality line, and will set the stage for a lot of public money spent later when safety becomes an issue.

CN is the one to state: "No catenary on CN tracks".

CN shows no inclination of co-operating on this.

Don't be so sure. Solve the freight interference problem, contribute to fixed costs - IIRC Mongeau said some very positive things a while back. Why electrify when the whole proposition is HFR and not HSR, anyways?

lol...you really don't like the idea this might just happen, do you?

I never said it won't happen. I never eliminate the possibility that Ottawa will make a bad decision, any more than I eliminate the possibility that the Maple Leafs will suck. I continue to believe that it'a the least beneficial proposition for an improved Corridor. The cheapest option is seldom the option that delivers best in the long run.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

Please reread my point. The Havelock has MORE crossings, almost all of them at grade. That profile is not a recipe for a high quality line, and will set the stage for a lot of public money spent later when safety becomes an issue.

MOre crossings than what? An alignment that doesn't exist? There is no dedicated passenger track extant on the Lakeshore alignment, for either CN or CP corridors.. It will have to be a totally new construction even if it's on land hived off from either of the big two. So how can you compare to something that doesn't already exist? Look at the map, and tell me there aren't vastly more crossings along the lakeshore. Not to mention the Port Hope, Belleville, Trenton, Kingston and other river valleys to be crossed by building hugely expensive trestles, and having to go through lengthy and expensive EAs to do it. There's a reason that D-S has mentioned *time and again* to "re-use little used freight lines and abandoned RoWs". The quotes have been posted many times in this string.

Don't be so sure. Solve the freight interference problem, contribute to fixed costs - IIRC Mongeau said some very positive things a while back. Why electrify when the whole proposition is HFR and not HSR, anyways?

"Why electrify?" I can't believe you've asked that. Read the press releases. As to catenary, double-stack freight, as you've pointed out yourself in the past, is the major problem. It's discussed in detail at various sites on-line, including one that Smallspy moderates. VIA needs its own dedicated track. Why that's so anathema to the Canadian mindset is the real question. That track can then be shared with regular height freight (not double-stack) on a temporal basis. D-S has articulated this time and again.

I never said it won't happen. I never eliminate the possibility that Ottawa will make a bad decision

It will only happen if private capital, as stated from the very start of this concept, invests in the RoW. Private capital(Public/Private in the case of Pension Funds) has invested *$Billions* of Cdn savings abroad in similar schemes, and done very well. Is that a "bad" decision?

 

[MisterF]

Not to pat myself on the back too much but this is exactly what I predicted when the rumours about the Peterborough route started circulating:

“All credit should go to the people in the Peterborough area who came up with this idea,” says Desjardins-Siciliano. “(We) used their (Shining Waters Railway) work, their study and their idea and took it off from there. We’re not working with them per say, but Shining Waters inspired this.”

“(We want to convert) what seemed to be a non-viable commuter service between Peterborough and Toronto to a viable inter-city service that includes the commuter service out of Peterborough.”

I'm quite sure the people of Peterborough are quite justifiably thrilled about the news but over the long-term this could be more harm than good. Such a service would put any GO train service to Pet. as a no-go as there simply wouldn't be the ridership for both services. If the ultimate goal is to have a completely integrated transit system across the Golden Horseshoe then this will could turn out to be detrimental.

I don't see how it could possibly be detrimental to Peterborough. Even if only a couple trains stop there every day, that's still more than it has today. My expectation though is that more trains that that would stop in Peterborough, like they currently do in Oshawa, Brantford and Kingston.

As for the possibility of a separate commuter-oriented EMU to Peterborough, I don't really see the need for that. Commuter service can be built into the Via schedule, with some trains stopping more frequently than others. Going by Desjardins-Siciliano's quote above, it appears that they want to build commuter service into the intercity service as they already do on their existing lines.

If you put this together with earlier statements I couldn't make much sense at the time, it's starting to sound like two service paradigms:

• A faster Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal service along a rebuilt northern corridor, and;
• A more local service with a Kingston Hub along the current corridor: Kingston-Toronto, Kingston-Montreal, Kingston-Ottawa serving the existing stations and acting partly as commuter lines into the big cities.

Is anyone else seeing this?

That's what I'm seeing too. The Windsor-Quebec corridor would essentially have a north mainline and a south mainline, with the latter still being shared with freight traffic. The only significant urban centre without rail service would be Sherbrooke.

Freight could be run at night, CP would still wish to serve a couple of clients, and perhaps even run some express merchandise trains along the route. CP would either be a partner in the consortium building the track, or sell the present western existing sections to the consortium and lease back access later.

I would think that CP would be on board from the start. They win with this deal because their line through Peterborough is in abysmal shape and would be rebuilt, allowing faster speeds and lower costs. It might even make it viable for them to expand their client base. They just have to give up control to Via.

 

[steveintoronto]

I would think that CP would be on board from the start. They win with this deal because their line through Peterborough is in abysmal shape and would be rebuilt, allowing faster speeds and lower costs. It might even make it viable for them to expand their client base. They just have to give up control to Via.

Excellent post. I do see a different scenario in terms of refurbishing and re-establishing the line back through to Glen Tay however. Totally agreed with CP having a golden opportunity on this, but VIA wouldn't and hasn't alluded to wishing to own this RoW.

It would be by a private consortium, or perhaps CP itself, albeit CP doesn't have deep pockets right now. It could, however, deepen them if the Missing Link is built, and this is part of a trade-off for rendering up the Mid-Town line to Metrolinx. But most likely, it will be a consortium of investors, including the Gov't in some form not so much for financing it, as the massive powers of various acts, Transportation, Railway, and Signals and Crossings Acts to name a few, to get this approved and happening in the shortest time possible. The Feds could also knock heads together if need be to make this work. (They have the legislative power to do so, itemized and cited in this forum a month or so back).

What we haven't heard from yet, as it's still metamorphosing, is the new Investment Bank. By its very design of including Federal participation (ratio of 1:5 for capitalizing being touted) approved projects would have the power of the acts mentioned to bull ahead on projects, but with much heftier fiscal weight. CP might be just as happy to lease back access (quite possibly conditional on them selling their present portion) for temporal night freight use. Since they'd have access at the eastern end again, it would allow greater and faster access of lighter freight trains (express merchandise, for instance) east-west, and new customers along the line.

Morneau still has a few weeks left in the month for his presentation to Parliament. I suspect a major announcement is imminent.

 

[innsertnamehere]

CP business has been declining in Peterborough for years as the tracks are in such poor shape. IIRC most of the line has 10mph restrictions on it. having that upgraded to 160kmh+ is nothing but good news, even if it comes with running restrictions. Peterborough will always be a smaller market for them, limited operating hours don't matter too much. This project essentially saves the line as it would never make sense to invest in the upgrades required just for freight.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Not to pat myself on the back too much but this is exactly what I predicted when the rumours about the Peterborough route started circulating:

I think the official announcement of VIA to Peterborough is quite rewarding for the people who live there, as well as people on this forum who read the writing on the wall and predicted it. I know a few UT users esentially called me and others liars for saying VIA was looking at Peterborough. Anyways that's behind us and I can't wait to see what future announcements will tell us about this project!

 

[Kitsune]

Here is the proposed route:

courtesy of http://www.mykawartha.com/news-stor...bring-commuter-train-service-to-peterborough/ . Kinda surprised only two news sources on this.