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TTC surface stop spacing

It should be remembered that the U.S. transit agencies generally have a much higher operating subsidy than the TTC gets. They can operate with lower ridership numbers, however at wider headways than Toronto. Having five minute subway headways on Sundays is very rare, when compared with the U.S..

The U.S. transit agencies also gets a subsidy from all levels of government to operate, while the TTC has only the city. Don't confuse this with the capital budget, in which the TTC (and other transit agencies in Canada) get one-of capital gifts from the province and federal governments.

The U.S transit agencies get subsidies from taxpayers. The TTC gets subsidies from taxpayers. There isn't really a difference. If the feds kicked in $100M a year tomorrow, you can sure bet within a few years , or the date of the next election, it would equalize out to Toronto contributing $100M less than now.

Capital projects really shouldn't be ignored in this as the US federal government's recent contributions to capital projects are why US cities have issued large amounts of debt to match the federal funds only to produce toy streetcar lines saddled with operating deficits, They could be abandoned track based on any future election where a city like Tuscon has to choose between a streetcar that comes every 20 minutes the feds gave them money to build, but loses $3M a year, or cutting multiple bus routes. $3M could buy and operate several buses every year.

It's great in theory, but in practice it a fantastic example of the worst way to fund transit. I do not want Conservative MPs from Estevan, Red Deer and Cape Breton deciding the funding for the Queen Car. The province can raise the identical money from the identical taxpayers, and they are accountable to voters here. Of course it would be great if Toronto could do the same, which in some ways it can but won't, but the feds don't do efficiency, they do pet pork projects.
 
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The U.S transit agencies get subsidies from taxpayers. The TTC gets subsidies from taxpayers. There isn't really a difference. If the feds kicked in $100M a year tomorrow, you can sure bet within a few years , or the date of the next election, it would equalize out to Toronto contributing $100M less than now.
The point isn't which level of government funds transit in the USA. The point is that the total subsidies in the US are much higher to Toronto.
 
From this link, the farebox recovery ratio is the fraction of operating expenses which are met by the fares paid by passengers. The higher the percentage, the more the share of the revenue comes directly from the passengers. The lower the percentage, the more the fare is subsidized.

North America
USAAmtrak71%Distance & demand based2009[SUP][20][/SUP]
North AmericaUSAAtlanta (MARTA)31.8%Flat rateUSD 2.502012[SUP][21][/SUP]
North AmericaUSAAustin (CMTA)12.4%Flat rateUSD 1.00-2.75, depending on modality2012[SUP][21][/SUP]
North AmericaCanadaBrampton (BT)46%Flat rateCAD 3.25 (cash) CAD 2.65 (Presto Card)2012[SUP][22][/SUP]
North AmericaUSABoston (MBTA)43.7%Flat rateUSD 2.65 (cash) / USD 2.10 (CharlieCard)2014[SUP][23][/SUP]
North AmericaCanadaCalgary50%Flat rateCAD 3.002011[SUP][24][/SUP]
North AmericaUSAChicago (CTA)43.0%Flat rateUSD 2.25 (cash) USD 2.00 (ChicagoCard)2012[SUP][21][/SUP]
North AmericaUSAChicago (Metra)55%Distance basedUSD 2.75+2012[SUP][25][/SUP]
North AmericaUSACleveland (GCRTA)21.5%Flat rateUSD 2.252002[SUP][23][/SUP]
North AmericaUSADallas (DART)13.7%Flat rateUSD 1.752012[SUP][21][/SUP]
North AmericaUSADetroit (DDOT)13.9%Flat rateUSD 1.502002[SUP][26][/SUP]
North AmericaCanadaEdmonton (ETS)39.4%Flat rateCAD 3.002007[SUP][27][/SUP]
North AmericaUSAHarrisburg, PA (CAT)35.0%Flat rateUSD 1.752005
North AmericaUSALas Vegas Monorail56.0%Flat rateUSD 5.002006[SUP][28][/SUP]
North AmericaUSALong Island (MTA)50.0%Zone basedUSD 5.00+2012[SUP][21][/SUP]
North AmericaUSALos Angeles (LACMTA)25.5%Flat rateUSD 1.75, with discounts for seniors, disabled, students2015[SUP][29][/SUP]
North AmericaUSAMaryland23.1%VariableUSD 1.60-11, depending on distance & modality2012[SUP][21][/SUP]
North AmericaUSAMiami24.1%2012[SUP][21][/SUP]
North AmericaUSAMinneapolis - St. Paul31.4%Flat rate with rush hour and express surchargesUSD 1.75 to USD 3.0081,000,0002008[SUP][30][/SUP]
North AmericaCanadaMississauga (MiWay)46%Flat rateCAD 3.252011[SUP][24][/SUP]
North AmericaCanadaMontreal (STM)57.1%Flat rateCAD 3.002006[SUP][31][/SUP]
North AmericaUSANew York City (MTA)51.2%Flat rateUSD 2.252013[SUP][32][/SUP]
North AmericaUSANew York/Connecticut (MTA)36.2%Distance basedUSD 2.25+2009 Q1[SUP][33][/SUP]
North AmericaUSANew York/New Jersey (PATH)41.0%Flat rateUSD 2.002002[SUP][23][/SUP]
North AmericaUSANew Jersey (NJT)56%Distance basedUSD 2.252001[SUP][34][/SUP]
North AmericaUSAOrlando (Lynx)25.7%Flat rateUSD 2.0029,200,0002012[SUP][35][/SUP]
North AmericaCanadaOttawa (OC Transpo)52%Flat rateCAD 3.30 (Cash) CAD 2.60 (Tickets/Presto Card)2011[SUP][36][/SUP]
North AmericaUSAPhiladelphia (SEPTA)40.7%Flat rateUSD 2.00 (cash) / USD 1.55 (Token) / USD 1.00 (Transfer)2013[SUP][37][/SUP]
North AmericaUSAPierce County, WA13.0%Flat rateUSD 2.002009[SUP][38][/SUP]
North AmericaUSAPhiladelphia/New Jersey (PATCO)66.2%Distance basedUSD 1.40+2012[SUP][39][/SUP]
North AmericaUSAPortland Metro Area (TriMet)22%Flat rateUSD 2.502010[SUP][40][/SUP]
2012[SUP][41][/SUP]
North AmericaUSAGreater Seattle Area (King County Metro)29.1%Zone and peak basedUSD 2.25+2013[SUP][42][/SUP]
North AmericaUSAPuget Sound Region (Sound Transit)22.2%Zone & distance basedUSD 1.50+2007[SUP][43][/SUP]
North AmericaCanadaQuebec City (RTC)39%Flat rateCAD 3.002011[SUP][24][/SUP]
North AmericaUSASan Antonio (VIA)12.8%Flat rateUSD 1.2046,700,0002012[SUP][44][/SUP]
North AmericaUSASan Diego MTS40%Flat rateUSD 2.5034,500,000[SUP][45][/SUP]2012[SUP][46][/SUP]
North AmericaUSASan Francisco Bay Area (BART)64.5%Distance basedUSD 1.75+2008[SUP][47][/SUP]
North AmericaUSASan Francisco Bay Area (Caltrain)51.3%Zone basedUSD 2.75+2011[SUP][48][/SUP]
North AmericaUSAStaten Island (MTA)15.2%Flat rateUSD 2.252002[SUP][23][/SUP]
North AmericaCanadaToronto (TTC)73%Flat rateCAD 3.002013[SUP][49][/SUP]
North AmericaCanadaToronto, Hamilton and area (GO Transit)78.2%Distance basedCAD 4.68+2013[SUP][50][/SUP]
North AmericaCanadaVancouver (TransLink)51.9%Zone basedCAD 2.50+2010[SUP][51][/SUP]
North AmericaUSAWashington, DC (WMATA)62.1%Distance basedUSD 1.95+2010[SUP][52][/SUP]
North AmericaCanadaWinnipeg60%Flat rateCAD 2.502011[SUP][24][/SUP]
 
The unnecessary bus stop that I was complaining about a few months ago is now gone!

WB Richmond at Victoria street (served only by 140-series downtown express services):
ttc-richmondvictoria-jpg.58725

Effective Friday, October 30th 2015, this stop will no longer be served.
We are removing closely-spaced stops to help speed up our service and prepare for the installation of a bike lane. [...]

This brings the former 150-metre stop spacing to a much more reasonable 300-metre spacing, much more suitable for a set of services whose entire purpose is to be faster than the standard transit routes.
 

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The point isn't which level of government funds transit in the USA. The point is that the total subsidies in the US are much higher to Toronto.

How so? Provide some numbers, I mean in total amount not the misleading subsidy per rider (oma cost isn't proportional to ridership).
 
The unnecessary bus stop that I was complaining about a few months ago is now gone!

WB Richmond at Victoria street (served only by 140-series downtown express services):
ttc-richmondvictoria-jpg.58725



This brings the former 150-metre stop spacing to a much more reasonable 300-metre spacing, much more suitable for a set of services whose entire purpose is to be faster than the standard transit routes.


Great news. When will they eliminate the senseless stops on the 500 streetcars? 300-350 meter is very reasonable.
 
Great news. When will they eliminate the senseless stops on the 500 streetcars? 300-350 meter is very reasonable.

They've been gradually eliminating superfluous streetcar and bus stops for at least a couple years now. Most notably on June 7th 2015 all the sunday streetcar stops were eliminated. Streetcar stops are being rationalized as per the approved board report on streetcar stop spacing. Interestingly that report indicates that the target spacing for streetcar stops is 250-350 metres, not 300-400 metres like I had thought. Yet the stops identified for removal seem more consistent with a 300-400m target.

However, as indicated in that report, the comprehensive review of streetcar stops is being watered down by local interests. We've talked here before about how hospitals are being used as an excuse to keep unbelievably absurd streetcar stops such as Queen & Victoria (90 m from Yonge), and Broadvview & Simpson/Jack Layton (95 m from Gerrard, to be moved to 70 m when the unwarranted traffic signals are eventually installed). But these are only the most high-profile examples. Local residents, assisted by their councillors, are clinging on to many of the other superfluous stops identified for removal. Interestingly, Steve Munro fits into that group - I gather his stop on Broadview is slated for removal. He claims that the TTC's review is haphazard and calls into question the notion that removing stops will result in a measurable improvement in travel time.

My guess as to the seemingly haphazard recommendations in the report is that the opponents had begun chipping away before it even went to the board.

Removing mid-block streetcar stops may not have that big of an impact on average travel times, but they should have an impact on reliability and bunching since they tend to be less well used, and therefore disproportionately delay vehicles that already have longer headways. But the main argument for removing them is to reduce the incentive for pedestrians to cross the street at uncontrolled intersections.

Removing stops at signalized intersections results a much greater improvement on travel times, due to signal co-ordination and signal priority, two variables that Munro does not seem to have considered.

Signal Co-ordination

Closely-spaced signals are almost always co-ordinated with one another, which means that travelling non-stop can almost guarantee a green in many cases. For example look at Dundas & Yonge, and Dundas & Victoria eastbound. The signal at Victoria has a much longer east-west green, due to the pedestrian scramble phase at Yonge. So it turns yellow several seconds after the signal at Yonge, allowing eastbound cars to get through both signals in one go. But there's a nearside streetcar stop at Victoria so streetcars almost always arrive on green, then by the time they've finished loading, the light has changed to red and they sit for an additional 20+ seconds waiting for the light to change.

Transit Signal Priority
Removing stops at signals allows the transit signal priority (TSP) at those locations to work more reliably. To work effectively, TSP depends on estimating when a streetcar will wish to pass through the intersection, in order to provide a green at that time. But with a near-side stop, it's anyone's guess when that might be - some streetcars might not stop at all, some might stop briefly to load a couple passengers, and some might stop for a while as someone boards with a stroller or wheelchair, etc. That level of variation is well beyond the tolerances of any TSP system. As a result some streetcars get little benefit from TSP as they take less than the anticipated amount of time (so the system does nothing, thinking they'd get a green anyway), and others get a negative benefit as the signal extends the green to its maximum and the streetcar still hasn't gotten through. In which case it actually increases the delay to them since the light will now change back to green later than it would have otherwise.
Furthermore, TSP at signals with nearside stops extends greens while they are at the stop - it does nothing to help get them there. In contrast, TSP without nearside stops extends greens while streetcars approach the intersection, helping to counteract traffic congestion by clearing out the queues in front of the streetcar. At some intersections it could even provide a left turn phase to clear out cars sitting on the tracks, like Bathurst & Adelaide for example.
 
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"Steve Munro fits into that group - I gather his stop on Broadview is slated for removal. He claims that the TTC's review is haphazard and calls into question the notion that removing stops will result in a measurable improvement in travel time." Yes, based on his many analyses, Steve says that removing stops (or traffic) is not the panacea claimed by the TTC for poor schedule adherence - the REAL solution is proper "LINE MANAGEMENT'.
 
"Steve Munro fits into that group - I gather his stop on Broadview is slated for removal. He claims that the TTC's review is haphazard and calls into question the notion that removing stops will result in a measurable improvement in travel time." Yes, based on his many analyses, Steve says that removing stops (or traffic) is not the panacea claimed by the TTC for poor schedule adherence - the REAL solution is proper "LINE MANAGEMENT'.

Yes, obviously more effective line management would have a larger impact on service quality than removing stops. Though I've never seen any evidence of the TTC suggesting that removing a few stops will solve all of streetcars' problems.

The problem with that argument is that these two approaches are not mutually exclusive. Removing stops does not prevent effective line management, in fact, it makes it easier.
 
How so? Provide some numbers, I mean in total amount not the misleading subsidy per rider (oma cost isn't proportional to ridership).
It takes you 5 months to ask?

Go look at the current TTC board documents on budget, take the subsidy per rider and multiply by the number of riders. It doesn't take much work to see that both Chicago and New York City have much higher total subsidies. Or for a Canadian example, take STM, that has much higher subsidy per rider, but similar ridership to TTC.
 
The Dundas and Victoria stops are being eliminated as of Monday, November 23. I didn't see any notices at Queen and Victoria, unfortunately.
Hooray for partial victories. Perhaps the TTC will notice that all the passengers have been able to walk to one of the incredibly close adjacent stop and that it doesn't take 3 light cycles for vehicles to advance to the stop on Yonge anymore. That may provide inspiration for the stop on Queen.
 
Hooray for partial victories. Perhaps the TTC will notice that all the passengers have been able to walk to one of the incredibly close adjacent stop and that it doesn't take 3 light cycles for vehicles to advance to the stop on Yonge anymore. That may provide inspiration for the stop on Queen.

My favourite stops are in the suburbs when a Bus stops at an incredibly busy intersection, then stops again on the other side of the intersection...as if traversing this portion of the route wasn't long enough.
 
My favourite stops are in the suburbs when a Bus stops at an incredibly busy intersection, then stops again on the other side of the intersection...as if traversing this portion of the route wasn't long enough.

This happens only at very busy transfer locations (and I expect speeds up bus service). ...at least from my experience

With stops on both sides you either have riders transferring either without crossing the intersection or crossing once (without results in them crossing once or twice)

If you dump all the riders off on one side of the street and make them walk to the other side for the transfer it impedes traffic trying to turn right (and causes a backlog in the right turn lane). And where does the next bus have to be? In the right turn lane to let the next group of people off.
 
Hooray for partial victories. Perhaps the TTC will notice that all the passengers have been able to walk to one of the incredibly close adjacent stop and that it doesn't take 3 light cycles for vehicles to advance to the stop on Yonge anymore. That may provide inspiration for the stop on Queen.

let's see, more stops need to be eliminated, including for example:
Huron
McCaul
Chestnut
and there should be only 2 stops between Ossington and Bathurst

On 501, Peter, McCaul, York, Victoria (all insanely close), and likely 2 between Bathurst and Ossington (1.2km, currently 4 stops in between, average distance 240m).
 

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