TTC surface stop spacing

[reaperexpress]

The Dundas and Victoria stops are being eliminated as of Monday, November 23.

Fantastic news! My biggest pet-peeve streetcar stops are finally getting the axe!

I didn't see any notices at Queen and Victoria, unfortunately.

According to the board report on stop rationalization, that stop "will be surveyed to determine the number of customers using [it] for the specific purpose of accessing the nearby hospital" (page 5).

let's see, more stops need to be eliminated, including for example:
Huron
McCaul
Chestnut
and there should be only 2 stops between Ossington and Bathurst

On 501, Peter, McCaul, York, Victoria (all insanely close), and likely 2 between Bathurst and Ossington (1.2km, currently 4 stops in between, average distance 240m).

According to page 7 in that same report, these are the stops approved for elimination on those two routes (the ones you mentioned are underlined).

505 Dundas:
- College (stop is eastbound only)
- Sheridan (opposed by local councillor)
- Bellwoods (stop is eastbound only)
- Chestnut
- Victoria

I agree that Huron needs to go as well, but removing McCaul would create a 440 m spacing which is a bit much for the first batch of removals.

501 Queen
- Abell/Beaconsfield (opposed by local councillor)
- McCaul and Simcoe* (to be replaced by St. Patrick)
- York
- Victoria*
- Caroline/Brooklyn (opposed by local councillor)
- Connaught and Kent (to be replaced by Woodfield)
- Waverly and Lee (to be replaced by Bellefair)

*Victoria and Simcoe are not in the list, even though they are mentioned elsewhere in the report as being identified for removal, including in the diagram at the end.

Removing Peter would create a 460 metre spacing, which is too long for now. The location of pedestrian crossings between Ossington and Bathurst means that there's no middle ground between the current 250m spacing and a 500m spacing, which is much too long for the first round of removals. Maybe in the future we could relocate some signals and PXOs to be more in the 300-400m range.

 

[ksun]

Regarding Victoria stop, if passengers can't walk 100 meter from Yonge stop, wonder how the managed to get on to the streetcar in the first place. Do they live within 100m from a 501 stop? How do people manage to get to other hospitals with more than 100m walk from a transit stop? I am sure all the hospitals on university require 100m walk (the walk within the subway stations is probably more than that.

As to 440/460m "too far" I also wonder how people manage to do that in other cities such as NYC or Boston.

 

[nfitz]

Regarding Victoria stop, if passengers can't walk 100 meter from Yonge stop, wonder how the managed to get on to the streetcar in the first place. Do they live within 100m from a 501 stop? How do people manage to get to other hospitals with more than 100m walk from a transit stop? I am sure all the hospitals on university require 100m walk (the walk within the subway stations is probably more than that.

Isn't the question how well used is the stop, and how often does the 501 get stuck between Victoria and Yonge? I don't see the need to get into walking distances.

 

[reaperexpress]

Regarding Victoria stop, if passengers can't walk 100 meter from Yonge stop, wonder how the managed to get on to the streetcar in the first place. Do they live within 100m from a 501 stop? How do people manage to get to other hospitals with more than 100m walk from a transit stop? I am sure all the hospitals on university require 100m walk (the walk within the subway stations is probably more than that.

As to 440/460m "too far" I also wonder how people manage to do that in other cities such as NYC or Boston.

Considering a subway train is 137 metres long, it is very likely that the walk within a subway station could exceed the distance between Yonge and Victoria. I walk further than the distance from Victoria to Yonge within a moving subway train as a part of my daily commute. And as it happens, that commute also includes walking from Queen & Victoria to Queen & Yonge.

Isn't the question how well used is the stop, and how often does the 501 get stuck between Victoria and Yonge? I don't see the need to get into walking distances.

Walking distance is a factor, because we aim to provide some given level of service with stops (i.e. we don't want people to be too far away from a transit stop). When we are removing stops, we must balance the hardship inflicted to those using the stop against the benefit to people on-board the streetcar. In this case, the hardship is so negligible that it takes just a minimal benefit to justify removing the stop.

Net change in travel time is also a factor. I expect that Victoria would perform poorly there too. Without a stop there, we could easily guarantee a green light for eastbound streetcars through a combination of TSP and signal co-ordination, which could save so much time that even the people forced to walk an extra 90 metres could end up with a faster trip. Travel time savings westbound are more of an uncertainty. But just as there are instances where the streetcar is stopped anyway due to traffic signals, there are instances where the streetcar misses an opportunity to get to the Yonge stop by stopping.

 

[ksun]

Isn't the question how well used is the stop, and how often does the 501 get stuck between Victoria and Yonge? I don't see the need to get into walking distances.

I don't need to reply to your weird logic of "since the bus stops anyway why not make a bus stop". It doesn't really apply anywhere in the real world.
What about the high possibility that the streetcars often miss a green light because of theses unnecessary stops? Happens every single day.

 

[reaperexpress]

I don't need to reply to your weird logic of "since the bus stops anyway why not make a bus stop". It doesn't really apply anywhere in the real world.
What about the high possibility that the streetcars often miss a green light because of theses unnecessary stops? Happens every single day.

Well actually it does exist at stop signs, but certainly not at traffic signals.

 

[dowlingm]

Given the TTC's policy of restricting speed over switches, I wonder how much time eliminating stops at places like Victoria will really save...

 

[reaperexpress]

Given the TTC's policy of restricting speed over switches, I wonder how much time eliminating stops at places like Victoria will really save...

The switches don't make much much difference, since the main advantage of removing the stops is to reduce the signal delay. Queen and Victoria has TSP, which can hold the light however long is needed to get the streetcar through the intersection. Dundas and Victoria doesn't have TSP and it's co-ordinated with Yonge and Dundas, so ideally that offset would be adjusted to accommodate streetcars slowing for the switch.

 

[Palma]

The switches don't make much much difference, since the main advantage of removing the stops is to reduce the signal delay. Queen and Victoria has TSP, which can hold the light however long is needed to get the streetcar through the intersection. Dundas and Victoria doesn't have TSP and it's co-ordinated with Yonge and Dundas, so ideally that offset would be adjusted to accommodate streetcars slowing for the switch.

Well I tried to go back and skim through posts to see if anything had been said about St Clair. But that street also has lots of stops that are closed spaced (Dufferin, Westmount, Northcliffe, Glenholme, (Vaughan, Bathurst) and then the stop as soon as streetcar leaves St Clair West. That is crazy

 

[ksun]

Well I tried to go back and skim through posts to see if anything had been said about St Clair. But that street also has lots of stops that are closed spaced (Dufferin, Westmount, Northcliffe, Glenholme, (Vaughan, Bathurst) and then the stop as soon as streetcar leaves St Clair West. That is crazy

I mentioned several times how frustrating it is to take the 512. On a busy weekend when every single stop involves loading and unloading (often one or two people at many stops) every 45 seconds, you might as well just walk. Tonronto is the only city that has such crazy spacing. Cities with twice or three times the density don't do this.

 

[nfitz]

I mentioned several times how frustrating it is to take the 512. On a busy weekend when every single stop involves loading and unloading (often one or two people at many stops) every 45 seconds, you might as well just walk. Tonronto is the only city that has such crazy spacing. Cities with twice or three times the density don't do this.

What an absolutely absurd statement. I've been on buses in New York, Montreal, Seattle, Bangkok, and Vancouver that stop just as frequently.

And walk as fast as the 512 even if it stops at every stop? I think you are pulling that one right out of your imagination!

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I mentioned several times how frustrating it is to take the 512. On a busy weekend when every single stop involves loading and unloading (often one or two people at many stops) every 45 seconds, you might as well just walk. Tonronto is the only city that has such crazy spacing. Cities with twice or three times the density don't do this.

What an absolutely absurd statement. I've been on buses in New York, Montreal, Seattle, Bangkok, and Vancouver that stop just as frequently.

And walk as fast as the 512 even if it stops at every stop? I think you are pulling that one right out of your imagination!

512 moves at 14 km/h, so anyone who walks as fast as the St Clair car must be an awfully fast walker with high endurance.

 

[nfitz]

14 km/hr! I'm surprised it's that fast. The most comparable bus is probably the Harbord/Wellesley route 94 - which is less than 10 km/hr in PM rush hour. Or the 65 Parliament (9.8 km/hr). I've missed both those buses a few times ... never been able to walk faster than it - unless there's been a huge incident, and there's just no traffic moving.

Presumably if ksun is so utterly wrong about such a basic fact, then he's wrong about everything else they say as well.

 

[ksun]

512 moves at 14 km/h, so anyone who walks as fast as the St Clair car must be an awfully fast walker with high endurance.

You mean 14km on average, including early morning, or at 11pm.
I was talking specifically about busy weekend afternoons.

 

[ksun]

What an absolutely absurd statement. I've been on buses in New York, Montreal, Seattle, Bangkok, and Vancouver that stop just as frequently.

And walk as fast as the 512 even if it stops at every stop? I think you are pulling that one right out of your imagination!

OK, show me a city where public transit has systematically 150-250m spacing - not one or two stops on a single line, but on average, system wide, like our entire streetcar/bus fleet.