TTC: Streetcar Network

[DonValleyRainbow]

Where else would you turn streetcars along King if you want to give more service on the busiest section of the route? Of course there are fewer passengers on Dufferin (and Cherry) but .....

Your only other options are too far east of Liberty (Wolseley Loop, Charlotte Loop) or going as far as Sunnyside Loop, potentially packing the streetcars.

 

[steveintoronto]

Your only other options are too far east of Liberty (Wolseley Loop, Charlotte Loop) or going as far as Sunnyside Loop, potentially packing the streetcars.

I wrote another option for this last night, only erased it a few hours back as it was still in 'Post Reply' cache:

Make Roncesvalles a separate line altogether save for well outside of peak. And the 504A turns west along the Queensway to the Humber Loop instead of up Roncy. From the Humber Loop, at least one new express bus route is run up to the subway (at least in peak). Further efforts for a 'King Street Clearway' west from the present 'End of Pilot' runs to the Queensway/Roncy/Queen intersection, and turns west.

Alternative: Queen car becomes the one to service Roncesvalles, not the 504. Emphasis for the 504, in whatever sub-routing, must be on 'priority of clearway', and the Queensway has that in bounds.

Much of the 504A traffic isn't getting on or off on Roncy, and what little there is can be serviced by another route. Most of what's on the 504A is headed to/from the subway.

So here's an added thought: An express bus on Parkside Dr that connects the streetcar stop atop of the bridge with the Keele and/or High Park Stations. Here's an older pic of the stop, it's now been much improved, and the steps down to Parkside are also about to be refurbished:

Here's where the stairs lead you down to:

Note the painted median in the road, and width of lanes. There's space to establish a curb bus lane right next to those steps. Would the Parkside route be superior to Roncy for delivering riders to the subway? It certainly couldn't be any worse, and there would be far less stops to service doing it.

How practical is it to loop an extra bus at Keele and/or High Park? The proof is in the tasting. That's exactly what happened with the 506 route when buses were doing exactly that when the tracks were being worked on: Looping at High Park Station. Initially Keele was tried, but the intersection was too problematic, and the Queensway bus still loops at Keele. It may be just a case of beefing up the Queensway bus schedule with a short-turn express during peak from Queensway to Keele.

 

[steveintoronto]

A possible complication to doing the above: The new track layout at Roncy/King/Queen/Queensway: Will King cars still be able to continue onto the Queensway with the new platform configuration on the Southwest track corner?

 

[drum118]

A possible complication to doing the above: The new track layout at Roncy/King/Queen/Queensway: Will King cars still be able to continue onto the Queensway with the new platform configuration on the Southwest track corner?

The platform will have to be on King St as a bump out, since there will be no room under the current plan for the new side to have that platform. Then, where do you put the Queensway stop for Queen or Roncy riders??

 

[steveintoronto]

The platform will have to be on King St as a bump out, since there will be no room under the current plan for the new side to have that platform. Then, where do you put the Queensway stop for Queen or Roncy riders??

You're going to have to pose that question again, or even better, link to the diagram for the new layout. I Googled for it last night, couldn't find it. The only difference to the present stopping arrangement is the southwest corner as I indicated, if that platform is extended, are the track switches King/Queensway still available?

 

[drum118]

You're going to have to pose that question again, or even better, link to the diagram for the new layout. I Googled for it last night, couldn't find it. The only difference to the present stopping arrangement is the southwest corner as I indicated, if that platform is extended, are the track switches King/Queensway still available?

As I stated in the past, the Queensway eastbound turning lane is being remove as well the current 501 eastbound platform. Bump out platforms will be on the east side of the intersections, as well the north side on both side of the street.

There is no room on the Queensway on the west side of Roncesvalles for a westbound platform due to the yard ladder switches and Sunnyside Loop. The new ROW will start around this area, with the first platform to the west where its currently located..

I am not sure if the current King stop at Queen is going to remain or be remove going north. There is no cut out ramp at that location now. If the stop is to remain, it will most likely be a bump out platform on a curve. I expect it will be remove.

I have no link to the final detail plans for this intersection and going from memory what I have seen and heard in the past.

 

[steveintoronto]

There is no room on the Queensway on the west side of Roncesvalles for a westbound platform due to the yard ladder switches and Sunnyside Loop. The new ROW will start around this area, with the first platform to the west where its currently located..

So locate it on King before the intersection. I don't see how things are any worse off than if it was the Queen car using it.

 

[steveintoronto]

I have no link to the final detail plans for this intersection and going from memory what I have seen and heard in the past.

Steve Munro had it up somewhere. I'll try and find it again later.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

https://www.ttc.ca/Service_Advisories/Route_diversions/504_181208.jsp

Thank god. Thanks to work on tracks along King this weekend, 504A will operate only from Dundas West Station to Dufferin, and 504B only Broadview Station to Distillery. This is only for this weekend, with buses filling in the gap between Dufferin and Sumach.

 

[jys]

So here's an added thought: An express bus on Parkside Dr that connects the streetcar stop atop of the bridge with the Keele and/or High Park Stations.

Can you explain how such a proposed express bus would be turned around at Queensway? What routing would it take? From Google Maps, I don't see any location where a bus loop can be built near the stop. Buses would have to turn onto Lakeshore road and then make a U-turn. As well, a bus bay built underneath the streetcar stop would take away from the sidewalk. A better location might be at South Kingsway, where buses can easily be turned around by the following routing with a bus bay built right next to the streetcar stop. As well, there is plenty of room at the marker to build a bus bay.

 

[steveintoronto]

Can you explain how such a proposed express bus would be turned around at Queensway?

It's an excellent question. By your asking that, I see you've studied the concept presented.

For a loop at that point it would have to be built close-by to allow both unloading and loading from the same lane if the buses are to stop under the bridge where the stairs exit. There may be enough room for a tight loop (with an agreement from CN) in the space leading east to the pump house between the CN RoW and the Queensway, but at the end of the day, your suggest makes much more sense, with perhaps an addition to your idea: (This would take the building of a stairway on the west side of the Parkside Bridge, desirable for almost any manifestation the routing takes)
An 'extension' to your idea would be a looped route from Keele Station-Parkside-Queensway-Windermere/Runnymede-Runnymede Station and vice verse so as to eliminate the need for looping or turning anywhere except at subways stations. It would of course be fully two way, spreading the load between the two major p/u and drop-off points for the King on Queensway route. Ellis Av could also cater to some stragglers, but it might be decided best to leave that to the present Queensway bus and/or Runnymede buses. Slowing down the 'subway connect bus loop' should be avoided if at all possible.

The major feature of my concept is to keep the King car moving at a prioritized rate. Roncesvalles is an impossible corridor for doing that. The Queensway is very opportune for it. It might also alleviate some of the subway crowding by intercepting passengers who'd normally take buses north to the subway, e.g. Royal York etc. Doubtless, it would take a real dedication on the City's part to invest in this, but it would be a heck of a lot more cost-effective than many other schemes touted.

The 'mountain to cross' isn't extending the 504 west along the Queensway, (and the Queen car turned up Roncy to Dundas West) it's how best to tie it into the subway from the 'southern alignment' (Of which the Queensway is part)

Alternate suggestions most welcome. Just re-reading your comment and "South Kingsway". That's another excellent one! Bus up to Jane Station. I was thinking Windermere when the South Kingsway might be a much better one.

 

[muller877]

Can you explain how such a proposed express bus would be turned around at Queensway? What routing would it take? From Google Maps, I don't see any location where a bus loop can be built near the stop. Buses would have to turn onto Lakeshore road and then make a U-turn. As well, a bus bay built underneath the streetcar stop would take away from the sidewalk. A better location might be at South Kingsway, where buses can easily be turned around by the following routing with a bus bay built right next to the streetcar stop. As well, there is plenty of room at the marker to build a bus bay.View attachment 166308

That's a rather long loop. Instead continue on S Kingsway to the Eastbound Queensway ramp. Have the stop directly under the bridge (lights on eastbound Queensway would have to move). And then hop back up to S Kingway via the northbound ramp.

(I think this is overkill...but it's an alternative)

There is huge latent demand in the Humber Bay area for a connection up to the subway but that is better served via tweaking the 66 Bus (using the streetcar tunnel under the Gardiner to avoid the traffic on Park Lawn)

 

[steveintoronto]

There is huge latent demand in the Humber Bay area for a connection up to the subway but that is better served via tweaking the 66 Bus (using the streetcar tunnel under the Gardiner to avoid the traffic on Park Lawn)

At one time, decades ago, it used to! (Or another bus route). I've looked for the history on this and have been able to confirm it verbally with other folks my generation, have yet to find it as written history that can be linked. That tunnel has gone through successions of being paved and not, and different walkways or none at all at one time through there.

Your point on the need for better service to the subway is very valid to the point I'm making with extending the 504 to the Humber Loop. Of course there's been lots of talk of building an LRT along the waterfront to there, lol...but Toronto likes to talk a lot about the hypothesis of transit expansion.

The first impression of the 504 extended west to the Humber is one of absurdity, except travelling up Roncesvalles is already absurd compared to what the King Project is attempting to achieve. Roncy could be served just as well by the Queen Car, and many of the passengers on the 504 could continue to destinations further west by distributed off-loading onto the north-south routes. It's far from ideal, but better than what now exists. It would also render the extension of the King Pilot to the Queensway as yielding a much greater result, and in doing so, be an easier sell to Council.

 

[muller877]

At one time, decades ago, it used to! (Or another bus route). I've looked for the history on this and have been able to confirm it verbally with other folks my generation, have yet to find it as written history that can be linked. That tunnel has gone through successions of being paved and not, and different walkways or none at all at one time through there.

Your point on the need for better service to the subway is very valid to the point I'm making with extending the 504 to the Humber Loop. Of course there's been lots of talk of building an LRT along the waterfront to there, lol...but Toronto likes to talk a lot about the hypothesis of transit expansion.

The first impression of the 504 extended west to the Humber is one of absurdity, except travelling up Roncesvalles is already absurd compared to what the King Project is attempting to achieve. Roncy could be served just as well by the Queen Car, and many of the passengers on the 504 could continue to destinations further west by distributed off-loading onto the north-south routes. It's far from ideal, but better than what now exists. It would also render the extension of the King Pilot to the Queensway as yielding a much greater result, and in doing so, be an easier sell to Council.

The problem with a bus N-S alternative is getting people off the streetcar. Most of their destinations are along King or Queen. Even now if I want to get from the Humber Bay area it would take 55 minutes if I'm on the 501 to Downtown (including the walk to the Humber Loop) versus 1h 5min via 66/2/1. And of course you are stuck when the subway breaks down.

The best way to get more people to use transit is your other idea. Have the 504 continue to the Humber Loop. Divert as many people as possible onto King St. Queen is painfully slow.

And the same on the other end. The 504 should continue on Queen E. Basically the 504 becomes the main east-west streetcar line. And the 501 becomes the slower one that goes to Broadview and Dundas West.

 

[steveintoronto]

And the same on the other end. The 504 should continue on Queen E. Basically the 504 becomes the main east-west streetcar line. And the 501 becomes the slower one that goes to Broadview and Dundas West.

I wonder if even taking some King cars even further west than the Humber Loop might be advantageous?

I thought of @nfitz comments today as I was at the Broadview station (changed a lot since I was there last) and waited for a long time for the 504B to show up, finally gave up and took an absolutely jammed (this was just past Noon) 505 bus south instead. Broadview seems to be less obstructed than Roncy, but you're right, the 501 could do the local service just as well as the 504 on the north/south trunks, and the 504 could be the one to run through to the Beaches.The trackwork is obviously already in place to allow this, both ends (Roncy and Broadview).

I'm interested to see what other posters can add to this.