Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
The batteries have to be able not catch fire. They are working on solutions, but will take time.
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TTC: Streetcar Network
- Thread starter wolfewood
- Start date
T3G
Senior Member
Thank God.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
All these people who dream of eliminating the overhead electrification we already have clearly havent thought through the amount of energy losses involved with charging and discharging batteries (much higher energy loss than just running the train directly off the grid), the infrastructure maintenance consequences of making streetcars much heavier, nor the energy efficiency and acceleration penalty of lugging around heavy batteries, or the financial cost of purchasing such a large quantity of batteries every couple decades. Battery-electric vehicles may be more cost effective than diesel, but they are not more cost-effective than overhead electric when you already have the overhead electrification in place.
The efficiency of battery-electric buses and streetcars always limited by charging opportunities. The more opportunity you have to charge the vehicle along the route, the smaller your battery can be, with corresponding improvements in energy efficiency, vehicle cost and acceleration. The ideal would be in-motion trickle charging, which requires continuous overhead electrification for a decent portion of the route. The absolute worst is fast-charging, since you first need to charge a wayside battery for the charger (since you can't suddenly connect a huge peak load directly to the grid) with energy losses, then that charger needs to charge the streetcar, with even more energy losses, and finally the battery needs to be used to operate the streetcar with all the usual energy losses.
There are definitely some cost savings to be had by adding small batteries to streetcars, but it would be by removing some of the overhead wires in yards and non-revenue / diversion track, not by dismantling a large proportion of the overhead wire on the network.
The efficiency of battery-electric buses and streetcars always limited by charging opportunities. The more opportunity you have to charge the vehicle along the route, the smaller your battery can be, with corresponding improvements in energy efficiency, vehicle cost and acceleration. The ideal would be in-motion trickle charging, which requires continuous overhead electrification for a decent portion of the route. The absolute worst is fast-charging, since you first need to charge a wayside battery for the charger (since you can't suddenly connect a huge peak load directly to the grid) with energy losses, then that charger needs to charge the streetcar, with even more energy losses, and finally the battery needs to be used to operate the streetcar with all the usual energy losses.
There are definitely some cost savings to be had by adding small batteries to streetcars, but it would be by removing some of the overhead wires in yards and non-revenue / diversion track, not by dismantling a large proportion of the overhead wire on the network.
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nightstreak
Active Member
Why would they be on the 501 at all? Nobody cares that the line follows a different path underground. They pick the quickest route to their destination. The natural place to change to the subway from a Queen East streetcar would be at Riverside station and take the subway across town to the nearest subway station to their destination or transfer to the last leg of their journey on a route that will take them there.
Toronto has spent decades with the 501 in mixed traffic as the only method of transit along Queen and never did these things, what makes you think that once there's a faster alternative running under Queen that the city is going to suddenly work on mixed traffic transit priority on Queen Street?
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Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
Detroit's Q-Line is still free. The double-ended streetcars runs on batteries on portions of the route. See https://wdet.org/2024/09/23/rta-to-take-over-qline-operations-expanding-funding-opportunities/
A reason to cross over on the Gordie Howe International Bridge to visit Detroit to look it and ride it.
A reason to cross over on the Gordie Howe International Bridge to visit Detroit to look it and ride it.
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zang
Senior Member
Why battery power? Alstom already has APS, and batteries increase complexity, maintenance costs and (assuming Li Ion batteries) weight and safety concerns.
APS: Service-proven catenary-free tramway operations
APS™ (Aesthetic Power Supply) is a highly reliable power system that reduces the footprint of light rail lines and preserves the aesthetics of urban environments.
APTA-2048
Senior Member
I think we have to look at what we're trying to achieve here. Investing in new and more complex technologies just to remove a couple of wires hardly seems worth it.
drum118
Superstar
Not true free.
There are overhead at the sport complex area and from the 3rd last north station to the last north station. Various stations have overhead charging stations, The last south station is charged from the overhead charger while the last north station charger is in between the station and the carhouse on a single track,
On opening day, cars had to do a full recharge at various stations due ridership that kill the quality of service. The batteries had to be upgraded to deal with lack of power that was supposed to be only top off at the various changing stations as plan not the full charging.
Today, the lack of ridership helps dealing with the lost of power.