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TTC: Streetcar Network

W. K. Lis

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Where do you plan for them to be store since there is no space for 40+ of those cars after Hillcrest is done??

Who paying for the extra 40+ cars?

At the moment, Hillcrest has buses. Once the McNicoll Bus Garage is available by the end of 2020 (allegedly), they can reconfigure Hillcrest to become a barn & yard for streetcars.
 

Bordercollie

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Bombardier Class B share price on June 26, 2009 (the day City Council approved the Flexity order) - $3.40
Bombardier Class B share price today - $0.33

If Bombardier hasn't felt the pain already, the TTC not ordering more streetcars is not going to get their attention.

The cars work, and TTC does not need an oddball second brand with a duplicate parts supply etc.

So I'd say, go ahead and order the additional 60 Flexities. The issues of principle have already been addressed.

- Paul

Will there be a need for more than 60 units before they are all delivered?
 

W. K. Lis

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Will there be a need for more than 60 units before they are all delivered?

From link.

The Greater Toronto Area (GTA) is projected to be the fastest growing region of the province, with its population increasing by 2.6 million, or 36.7 per cent, from 7.0 million in 2019 to over 9.5 million by 2046. The GTA’s share of provincial population is projected to rise from 47.9 per cent in 2019 to 49.8 per cent in 2046.​

Subject to CONVID-19, of course.

See also link.




Remember that before the Spanish Flu, Toronto had a population of...
1911381,383

After the Spanish Flu...
1921521,893
 
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drum118

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At the moment, Hillcrest has buses. Once the McNicoll Bus Garage is available by the end of 2020 (allegedly), they can reconfigure Hillcrest to become a barn & yard for streetcars.
It will only hold 60 cars under the current thinking.
 

W. K. Lis

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From TTC Fleet Procurement Strategy and Plan, at this link.

Streetcar Facility Plan

The TTC’s three existing streetcar facilities can accommodate a total of approximately 239 streetcars, beyond which safety and reliability of operations would demand additional storage and maintenance capacity at TTC’s Hillcrest facility. A $100 million investment in the Hillcrest facility would accommodate approximately 25 of the 60 additional streetcars, allowing for a total fleet size of 264 vehicles and improving service resiliency through the addition of a fourth facility located adjacent to St. Clair Avenue right-of-way, a major streetcar route.

This report recommends the immediate procurement of 13 additional streetcars with the funding currently available. Existing facilities can accommodate 13 streetcars; however, should additional sources of funding be identified to ensure supply of all 60 streetcars to meet fleet requirements, an investment in the Hillcrest facility will be required by Q1 of 2021 to ensure capacity is available in advance of approximately Q1 of 2024 when the total fleet size exceeds the maximum capacity currently available.

Immediate Next Steps:

Of the $500 million estimated total cost for 60 additional streetcars approximately $140 million (or 23%) is funded. When combined with the additional $100 million for the associated facility modifications required to TTC’s Hillcrest facility, there is an incremental funding need of $460 million. Given this, the next immediate steps are outlined below:

Fleet: With existing funding, secure a base order for accelerated delivery of 13 streetcars between Q1 of 2023 and Q1 of 2025. To ensure the earliest possible delivery of additional streetcars with the lowest technical, schedule, and cost risk, a contract change with Bombardier is recommended.​
This initial order would ensure capacity matches customer demand on both streetcars and bus routes as it allows for the reallocation of buses currently allocated to supplement service on streetcar routes. The order would also allow for an increase in procurement quantity to a combined total of 60 additional streetcars through contract options should sources of additional funding be identified prior to the end of Q1 of 2021.​

Facilities: Advance study of necessary modifications to Hillcrest (currently funded to $2.5 million) to enable storage, maintenance, and delivery of service for up to 25 streetcars.​
Secure funding commitment for remaining $97.5 million (placeholder) by Q4 of 2020 (along with remaining funding required for all 60 additional streetcars) to ensure delivery of required facilities infrastructure in time for delivery of the last 25 of 60 streetcars.​
Note: The study to be performed at Hillcrest to accommodate additional streetcars is one component consideration in the overall scope of work to determine the highest and best use of the entire Hillcrest complex. Progress against this study is to be reported through a TTC Real Estate Investment Plan.​
 

Bureaucromancer

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Ignoring all other factors, a 60 unit subfleet would be somethign we can work with. 13 without true commitments to the other 47 though?

Its the timeline actually involved in getting a new fleet designed and into service that really makes me unable to stomach anything but more Flexities. That said, it's probably time to take a serious look at what intersections really can't have their radii improved, because a repeat of the Flexity design process in ~2050 will only be more painful, while anything we can do to bring the next generation closer to an off the shelf LRV will help.
 

DSC

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Ignoring all other factors, a 60 unit subfleet would be somethign we can work with. 13 without true commitments to the other 47 though?

Its the timeline actually involved in getting a new fleet designed and into service that really makes me unable to stomach anything but more Flexities. That said, it's probably time to take a serious look at what intersections really can't have their radii improved, because a repeat of the Flexity design process in ~2050 will only be more painful, while anything we can do to bring the next generation closer to an off the shelf LRV will help.
I do not think any re-design is anticipated. The streetcars they are talking about getting (13) and dreaming of (47) will be the same design as the first 204..
 

Northern Light

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I do not think any re-design is anticipated. The streetcars they are talking about getting (13) and dreaming of (47) will be the same design as the first 204..

I believe he's suggesting this in time for when the entire Flexity fleet comes up for replacement.
 

Northern Light

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Ignoring all other factors, a 60 unit subfleet would be somethign we can work with. 13 without true commitments to the other 47 though?

Its the timeline actually involved in getting a new fleet designed and into service that really makes me unable to stomach anything but more Flexities. That said, it's probably time to take a serious look at what intersections really can't have their radii improved, because a repeat of the Flexity design process in ~2050 will only be more painful, while anything we can do to bring the next generation closer to an off the shelf LRV will help.

I understand the impulse; but the streetcar network runs through the oldest parts of our city; expanding the turning radii of intersections here, aside from making the roads a bit more challenging/hostile to cross; would almost certainly require knocking down several buildings.

Many would doubtless be character/historical structures; but even those that weren't would be large and expensive to acquire and remove.

Keep in mind, even if only 1 tight radii remained, we would still the need the entire fleet to be able to navigate that turn.

Fixing 1/2 of the problematic corners doesn't change the vehicle design requirement.

Changing all of the problematic corners would.

I don't think that's any more realistic or desirable (and indeed probably less so) than materially lessening the grade of the big Bathurst St. Hill which is another source of our custom specs; along with our distinct rail gauge.

I think we're probably stuck buying custom fleets in perpetuity.
 
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Bureaucromancer

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I believe he's suggesting this in time for when the entire Flexity fleet comes up for replacement.
Exactly.

Ignoring the late delivery, we were still talking about a mutli-year process to get the custom design we needed to deal with the network, with the major pain points being the single point switches and sharp curves. With a thirty year design life, we'll be looking at the Flexity replacements (shortly) before I retire...

It will save a lot of time if the network can handle something more standardized by then.
 

JSF-1

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I see the TTC is talking about a carhouse on St.Clair, shame we will need to go through this exspense since the TTC used to own a Wychwood Carhouse. A cursory glance at google maps would lead me to believe it would be located on the industrial lot at Townsley or a maple leaf foods plant just west of Gunns Loop.

StClairBarns.pngTownsleyBarns.png
 

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