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TTC: Streetcar Network

torontocolin

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It's frustrating to me that they are not creating a dedicated left turn lane of some sort for vehicles at King and Roncesvalles, there is space for it and would improve service reliability immensely for the 504 in the evenings. The backups of left turning vehicles from King St can create 3-4 cycle waits to clear the intersection. Either getting cars through the intersection faster or out of the way of the streetcar would make a huge difference.
They should just prohibit left turns here. While they could fit a left turn lane, the goal is to shrink the intersection to make it safer for pedestrians. Cars which want to continue from King onto the Queensway can take Jameson up to Queen and make the left there. Though if they're turning it into a more normal intersection, they could maybe instead do an advance green for northbound traffic in the afternoon.

What is the proposed route to extend the Dundas West Streetcars north of Bloor?
The plan was to run the 505 to the loop at Dundas and Runnymede. Then a connecting track along Runnymede to St Clair would allow cars at Roncy to reach an extended 512 much faster, as well as providing redundancy as St Clair currently has just the one connection to the carhouses. The 1997 TTC Opportunities For New Streetcar Routes report (the one which resulted in the creation of the 509) recommending protecting for that possibility once there was more residential density along St Clair. Of course, with the size of the flexities, the loop at Runnymede could never manage the volume of streetcars from both the 505 and 512, even if you short-turned half the 505 service at Dundas West station and half the 512 at Gunn's, so a 512 extension would need a new loop at St Clair (presumably somewhere at Jane or Scarlett).

This scheme would probably also require a redesign of Dundas West station as you'd now have cars going both north and south serving the station. The station isn't really suited to on street boarding so you'd need a third streetcar platform. So now you're looking at a fairly significant investment for relatively minimal (public-facing) service improvement. If a developer was willing to subsidize it then maybe it's possible (the TTC has long maintained that if a developer on St Clair would like to pay to put in the track, they'd run the cars) but otherwise as mentioned the priority is very much elsewhere.
 

innsertnamehere

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There is an advance green already, and banning left turns would do nothing but create tons of traffic infiltration into the neighbourhood around the intersection as people try to go around the intersection. The volume of left turns is huge too - probably 70% of traffic on King is doing that turn.
 

micheal_can

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They should just prohibit left turns here. While they could fit a left turn lane, the goal is to shrink the intersection to make it safer for pedestrians. Cars which want to continue from King onto the Queensway can take Jameson up to Queen and make the left there. Though if they're turning it into a more normal intersection, they could maybe instead do an advance green for northbound traffic in the afternoon.
I am surprised the core area allows left turns anywhere.
 

drum118

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What is the proposed route to extend the Dundas West Streetcars north of Bloor?
It would follow Dundas like it did before it got removed up to Runnymede, but extended it to Scarlett Rd or take it up Runnymede to St Clair. It would be in mix traffic. Going to Scarlett has its pro/cons and would join St Clair there.

This will never be seen by a good number board members in their life time, if at all, since it well below the line for funding.

Its shouldn't be in the Transit fantasy thread since TTC has already talked about doing this years ago. TTC wanted a faster route to get 512 cars in/out of service than it does today. This was before Hillcrest was been looked at to service 512 and 511.
 

Amare

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They should just prohibit left turns here. While they could fit a left turn lane, the goal is to shrink the intersection to make it safer for pedestrians. Cars which want to continue from King onto the Queensway can take Jameson up to Queen and make the left there. Though if they're turning it into a more normal intersection, they could maybe instead do an advance green for northbound traffic in the afternoon.
Which is the exact opposite of what they should be doing; the intersection is already a mess and it doesnt work for vehicles, streetcars, or pedestrians. Sometimes I think they forget that a streetcar yard is there, so if you shrink the intersection it's going to cause major congestion issues getting cars into and out of the yard. It already takes streetcars eons to clear the intersection since they have to stop and proceed a million times to clear the tracks, so having on through lane for all traffic is a horrid idea.

Not only that, but shrinking the intersection will result in a backup of both cars and streetcars since the cars will have to wait for streetcars to service the stop before the rest of the traffic can clear the intersection, creating bump-outs close to the intersection is just bad planning.

Honestly the property at the southwest corner of the intersection needs to be expropriated to fully fix the configuration. As it stands right now, its a pinch point and a major visibility issue.
 

W. K. Lis

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Concerning the plans to spit the 501 into two routes, the 501A and 501B.

Wouldn’t the 501B Long Branch to Riverside Loop be only a temporary route. Until that is, the Ontario Line (AKA Downtown Relief Line) goes into operation? Whenever that would be.

With the Ontario Line’s Leslieville Station or the Downtown Relief Line’s Carlaw Station (both located on Queen Street East), wouldn’t it become the new eastern “terminal” for the 501B? And would it be a on-street transfer or off-street paid-area transfer? For both the 501A and 501B?

That should put a wrinkle with Metrolinx plans.
 

micheal_can

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Concerning the plans to spit the 501 into two routes, the 501A and 501B.

Wouldn’t the 501B Long Branch to Riverside Loop be only a temporary route. Until that is, the Ontario Line (AKA Downtown Relief Line) goes into operation? Whenever that would be.

With the Ontario Line’s Leslieville Station or the Downtown Relief Line’s Carlaw Station (both located on Queen Street East), wouldn’t it become the new eastern “terminal” for the 501B? And would it be a on-street transfer or off-street paid-area transfer? For both the 501A and 501B?

That should put a wrinkle with Metrolinx plans.
Maybe it is how things are done in the past, but why should a busy streetcar route be shut down when a subway that follows it is opened?
 

Rainforest

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Concerning the plans to spit the 501 into two routes, the 501A and 501B.

Wouldn’t the 501B Long Branch to Riverside Loop be only a temporary route. Until that is, the Ontario Line (AKA Downtown Relief Line) goes into operation? Whenever that would be.
If it becomes a "temporary" route for 7 years, from 2020 till 2027 when the Ontario Line (possibly) goes into operation, then it will outlive quite a few other TTC routes.

With the Ontario Line’s Leslieville Station or the Downtown Relief Line’s Carlaw Station (both located on Queen Street East), wouldn’t it become the new eastern “terminal” for the 501B? And would it be a on-street transfer or off-street paid-area transfer? For both the 501A and 501B?
I think bigger changes will occur on the east side of Queen. It will make a lot of sense to run more frequent streetcar service east of Leslieville or east of Carlaw, as feeders from the beaches to OL, than in the central Queen where the streetcars will co-exist with the subway stations.

The west side of Queen will not see much relief from OL, at least from the first phase of OL, thus there will be fewer reasons to modify the western service.
 

W. K. Lis

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Imagine if they did NOT remove the streetcar tracks on Yonge Street, Bloor Street, and Danforth Avenue. They would have the use of larger and longer vehicles to use as shuttles doing the subway shutdowns on weekends, and night streetcars as well.

From link. 1945 Streetcar System Map.

1576291751234.png


Notice the wye's at Scollard/Yonge and Price/Yonge.

From link.



What I'm worried about is the slow disappearance of trackwork that could be used for detours or short turns. I would like to see the return of wye's to allow for short turns instead of loops.
 

north-of-anything

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Would it even be feasible to add streetcar tracks back to streets like Dupont or Bay nowadays? It wouldn't be a terrible idea to keep a downtown streetcar network growing instead of adding buses, but there would be a lot of difficulty in convincing the public, and for finding more space to store streetcars.
 

jje1000

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I think a line that goes from Dupont Station west to Dufferin would be a good North-of-Bloor East-West connector, that lies equidistant between Bloor and St. Clair. Significant densification potential in the area as well and opportunities to intersect whatever transit line comes north in the future.

Same with Parliament; a line that connects the Distillery District, Regent Park and St. Jamestown up to Castle Frank would create a new North-South line that connects a lot of destinations - plus the tracks are mostly there already.

The other areas of focus would probably mostly be on the Waterfront and Portlands.
 

drum118

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I think a line that goes from Dupont Station west to Dufferin would be a good North-of-Bloor East-West connector, that lies equidistant between Bloor and St. Clair. Significant densification potential in the area as well and opportunities to intersect whatever transit line comes north in the future.

Same with Parliament; a line that connects the Distillery District, Regent Park and St. Jamestown up to Castle Frank would create a new North-South line that connects a lot of destinations - plus the tracks are mostly there already.

The other areas of focus would probably mostly be on the Waterfront and Portlands.
TTC position is, "these tracks aren't in the official plan and we can think outside the box and ask that they be added to the "OFFICIAL PLAN""
 

lenaitch

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Imagine if they did NOT remove the streetcar tracks on Yonge Street, Bloor Street, and Danforth Avenue. They would have the use of larger and longer vehicles to use as shuttles doing the subway shutdowns on weekends, and night streetcars as well.

From link. 1945 Streetcar System Map.

View attachment 220077

Notice the wye's at Scollard/Yonge and Price/Yonge.

From link.



What I'm worried about is the slow disappearance of trackwork that could be used for detours or short turns. I would like to see the return of wye's to allow for short turns instead of loops.
Given today's traffic densities, I would think an on-street wye would be highly disruptive. If nothing else, manual or fixed traffic control would be required.
 

Rainforest

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It wouldn't be a terrible idea to keep a downtown streetcar network growing instead of adding buses, but there would be a lot of difficulty in convincing the public, and for finding more space to store streetcars.
The storage isn' a huge problem; the existing tracks do connect to suburban areas where land parcels for additional car barns can be found.

The difficulty to convince the public, on the other hand .. can that be a sign that the actual riders don't see much value in converting mixed-traffic bus routes to mixed-traffic streetcar routes? The travel times will be same, or maybe slightly worse because it is harder for a streetcar to get around obstacles. The headways might increase if the route does not have very solid ridership already; higher capacity per vehicle = fewer vehicles per hour. The streetcar ride is more smooth, but does it matter that much for the majority of riders?

As I remember, the research on the riders' preferences, bus vs streetcars, produce results that vary from one city to another. While Toronto downtowners appear to prefer streetcars, perhaps for nostalgic reasons in part, that kind of preference isn't universal.

There may be benefits in adding some strategic bits to the mixed-traffic streetcar network, such as extending the 505 north along Dundas (that could relief the Dundas West streetcar loop and allow for more frequent 504 service), or extending 505 further east using Gerrard and then to Coxwell Stn (more service on the route that already has 506 streetcars, plus more room at the Broadview loop for added 504 cars). There is even greater benefit in extending the 512 west to Scarlett, if that line can remain entirely in dedicated lanes. However, trying to convert every bus route to streetcar just because there is a way to fit the streetcar on the street, may not be the path to actual transit improvement.
 

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