News   Dec 04, 2020
 427     0 
News   Dec 04, 2020
 728     1 
News   Dec 04, 2020
 556     2 

TTC: Streetcar Network

W. K. Lis

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
18,046
Reaction score
6,788
Location
Toronto, ON, CAN, Terra, Sol, Milky Way
The EA schedule for 2010 was to take the line to Scarlett Rd, but was put on the shelf.

Can't see it been taken to Jane as there is no place to build a loop like Scarlett Rd.

Will not see the line going to Kipling in anyone life time. If and when, it will have to run in Mix Traffic for most of the route.

I had to laugh when I saw the comments "NOT IN THE CITY OFFICIAL PLAN" showing TTC can't think outside the box. Not that hard to get a line(s) added to the Official Plan. The Official Plan is supposed to be updated every 5 years.

Taking 505 east of Broadview will require "ALL" on street parking remove and only a single lane of traffic in each direction with no left turn lanes.

See nothing wrong converting 22 bus to streetcar other than ridership.
The 512 ST. CLAIR extension to Jane could be extended to the Jane Station. However, we would be better off ordering and using double-ended streetcars to fit into the Jane Station. (Could use double-ended streetcars on the 506 CARLTON into an expanded Keele Station.)

In the meantime, they can use an on-street loop using Jane, Dundas, Scarlett, and St. Clair, AFTER they rebuild and widen the Scarlett Road railway underpass (and fix the rainfall flooding at the Jane Street railway underpass).
 

drum118

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
15,781
Reaction score
9,514
Location
Mississauga, where cars rule city growth
The 512 ST. CLAIR extension to Jane could be extended to the Jane Station. However, we would be better off ordering and using double-ended streetcars to fit into the Jane Station. (Could use double-ended streetcars on the 506 CARLTON into an expanded Keele Station.)

In the meantime, they can use an on-street loop using Jane, Dundas, Scarlett, and St. Clair, AFTER they rebuild and widen the Scarlett Road railway underpass (and fix the rainfall flooding at the Jane Street railway underpass).
Jane has been rule out as a surface route do to being to narrow and prefer to be underground. The plan for Jane was to have the line underground at St Clair and St Clair at Grade in it own ROW to Scarlett Rd with a loop on the west side of it. Taking the line under the new underpass is way down the road to Kipling.

The idea of taking the line to Dundas West is higher to happening than going west since there used to be tracks on Dundas. A new EA would be require to put tracks back on Dundas and would get 512 cars in/out of service faster than today, unless Hillcrest becomes their new home

Taking 506 to Keele is not only useless, but no room for it.
 

smallspy

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Nov 27, 2009
Messages
4,228
Reaction score
3,838
The EA schedule for 2010 was to take the line to Scarlett Rd, but was put on the shelf.

Can't see it been taken to Jane as there is no place to build a loop like Scarlett Rd.
The EA for the line itself has been postponed, but there have been several other EAs in the neighbourhood that have make sure that the line is accommodated.

As for the loop, it was originally to be planned to be located in the parkette in the north-east corner of Scarlett and St. Clair. I don't see why that would change.

Dan
 

Streety McCarface

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Messages
1,998
Reaction score
1,915
See nothing wrong converting 22 bus to streetcar other than ridership.
Just did some digging through the surface route statistics, and the 22 is sitting at 5550 PPD. Interestingly, the 502 has a ridership greater than that at 5970 PPD. Going back in time, the ridership of the 22 used to be 6,300 PPD in 2014, 7,100 PPD in 2012. The 502/503 was sitting at 7,800 in 2011, 6000 in 2012, and 6,200 in 2014. I've got no clue as to why these numbers are all over the place.

Nevertheless, the 22 is a 5.3km route, 2km on Coxwell. By contrast, the 509 sees 11K PPD and runs a 4km route. You could still run streetcars on Coxwell only during the peak hours and have it remain a 10-minute route, and run it down Kingston road when the 503 sees minimal service. Ridership would still be justified.
 

drum118

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
15,781
Reaction score
9,514
Location
Mississauga, where cars rule city growth
The EA for the line itself has been postponed, but there have been several other EAs in the neighbourhood that have make sure that the line is accommodated.

As for the loop, it was originally to be planned to be located in the parkette in the north-east corner of Scarlett and St. Clair. I don't see why that would change.

Dan
I known the EA has been postpone with the city trying to buy property when possible to widen St Clair and to protect the ROW. The west side of Scarlett was the prefer site as it open up another option to expand west beside Dundas as a branch line.
 

innsertnamehere

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Messages
14,781
Reaction score
9,764
It's frustrating to me that they are not creating a dedicated left turn lane of some sort for vehicles at King and Roncesvalles, there is space for it and would improve service reliability immensely for the 504 in the evenings. The backups of left turning vehicles from King St can create 3-4 cycle waits to clear the intersection. Either getting cars through the intersection faster or out of the way of the streetcar would make a huge difference.
 
Last edited:

blu_in_green

New Member
Member Bio
Joined
Aug 27, 2019
Messages
19
Reaction score
8
Jane has been rule out as a surface route do to being to narrow and prefer to be underground. The plan for Jane was to have the line underground at St Clair and St Clair at Grade in it own ROW to Scarlett Rd with a loop on the west side of it. Taking the line under the new underpass is way down the road to Kipling.

The idea of taking the line to Dundas West is higher to happening than going west since there used to be tracks on Dundas. A new EA would be require to put tracks back on Dundas and would get 512 cars in/out of service faster than today, unless Hillcrest becomes their new home

Taking 506 to Keele is not only useless, but no room for it.
What is the proposed route to extend the Dundas West Streetcars north of Bloor?
 

DSC

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Jan 13, 2008
Messages
11,872
Reaction score
7,550
Location
St Lawrence Market Area
What is the proposed route to extend the Dundas West Streetcars north of Bloor?
This is FAR from being at the stage of being 'proposed'. This discussion really belongs in the transit fantasy thread. At the moment all the available $$ (of which there are far from enough!) are destined for the waterfront line(s) and the new streetcars needed to actually offer service on them.
 

torontocolin

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Messages
137
Reaction score
142
It's frustrating to me that they are not creating a dedicated left turn lane of some sort for vehicles at King and Roncesvalles, there is space for it and would improve service reliability immensely for the 504 in the evenings. The backups of left turning vehicles from King St can create 3-4 cycle waits to clear the intersection. Either getting cars through the intersection faster or out of the way of the streetcar would make a huge difference.
They should just prohibit left turns here. While they could fit a left turn lane, the goal is to shrink the intersection to make it safer for pedestrians. Cars which want to continue from King onto the Queensway can take Jameson up to Queen and make the left there. Though if they're turning it into a more normal intersection, they could maybe instead do an advance green for northbound traffic in the afternoon.

What is the proposed route to extend the Dundas West Streetcars north of Bloor?
The plan was to run the 505 to the loop at Dundas and Runnymede. Then a connecting track along Runnymede to St Clair would allow cars at Roncy to reach an extended 512 much faster, as well as providing redundancy as St Clair currently has just the one connection to the carhouses. The 1997 TTC Opportunities For New Streetcar Routes report (the one which resulted in the creation of the 509) recommending protecting for that possibility once there was more residential density along St Clair. Of course, with the size of the flexities, the loop at Runnymede could never manage the volume of streetcars from both the 505 and 512, even if you short-turned half the 505 service at Dundas West station and half the 512 at Gunn's, so a 512 extension would need a new loop at St Clair (presumably somewhere at Jane or Scarlett).

This scheme would probably also require a redesign of Dundas West station as you'd now have cars going both north and south serving the station. The station isn't really suited to on street boarding so you'd need a third streetcar platform. So now you're looking at a fairly significant investment for relatively minimal (public-facing) service improvement. If a developer was willing to subsidize it then maybe it's possible (the TTC has long maintained that if a developer on St Clair would like to pay to put in the track, they'd run the cars) but otherwise as mentioned the priority is very much elsewhere.
 

innsertnamehere

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Messages
14,781
Reaction score
9,764
There is an advance green already, and banning left turns would do nothing but create tons of traffic infiltration into the neighbourhood around the intersection as people try to go around the intersection. The volume of left turns is huge too - probably 70% of traffic on King is doing that turn.
 

micheal_can

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2016
Messages
2,152
Reaction score
1,341
They should just prohibit left turns here. While they could fit a left turn lane, the goal is to shrink the intersection to make it safer for pedestrians. Cars which want to continue from King onto the Queensway can take Jameson up to Queen and make the left there. Though if they're turning it into a more normal intersection, they could maybe instead do an advance green for northbound traffic in the afternoon.
I am surprised the core area allows left turns anywhere.
 

drum118

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
15,781
Reaction score
9,514
Location
Mississauga, where cars rule city growth
What is the proposed route to extend the Dundas West Streetcars north of Bloor?
It would follow Dundas like it did before it got removed up to Runnymede, but extended it to Scarlett Rd or take it up Runnymede to St Clair. It would be in mix traffic. Going to Scarlett has its pro/cons and would join St Clair there.

This will never be seen by a good number board members in their life time, if at all, since it well below the line for funding.

Its shouldn't be in the Transit fantasy thread since TTC has already talked about doing this years ago. TTC wanted a faster route to get 512 cars in/out of service than it does today. This was before Hillcrest was been looked at to service 512 and 511.
 

Amare

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Feb 4, 2015
Messages
3,196
Reaction score
3,268
Location
Toronto
They should just prohibit left turns here. While they could fit a left turn lane, the goal is to shrink the intersection to make it safer for pedestrians. Cars which want to continue from King onto the Queensway can take Jameson up to Queen and make the left there. Though if they're turning it into a more normal intersection, they could maybe instead do an advance green for northbound traffic in the afternoon.
Which is the exact opposite of what they should be doing; the intersection is already a mess and it doesnt work for vehicles, streetcars, or pedestrians. Sometimes I think they forget that a streetcar yard is there, so if you shrink the intersection it's going to cause major congestion issues getting cars into and out of the yard. It already takes streetcars eons to clear the intersection since they have to stop and proceed a million times to clear the tracks, so having on through lane for all traffic is a horrid idea.

Not only that, but shrinking the intersection will result in a backup of both cars and streetcars since the cars will have to wait for streetcars to service the stop before the rest of the traffic can clear the intersection, creating bump-outs close to the intersection is just bad planning.

Honestly the property at the southwest corner of the intersection needs to be expropriated to fully fix the configuration. As it stands right now, its a pinch point and a major visibility issue.
 

W. K. Lis

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
18,046
Reaction score
6,788
Location
Toronto, ON, CAN, Terra, Sol, Milky Way
Concerning the plans to spit the 501 into two routes, the 501A and 501B.

Wouldn’t the 501B Long Branch to Riverside Loop be only a temporary route. Until that is, the Ontario Line (AKA Downtown Relief Line) goes into operation? Whenever that would be.

With the Ontario Line’s Leslieville Station or the Downtown Relief Line’s Carlaw Station (both located on Queen Street East), wouldn’t it become the new eastern “terminal” for the 501B? And would it be a on-street transfer or off-street paid-area transfer? For both the 501A and 501B?

That should put a wrinkle with Metrolinx plans.
 

Top