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TTC: Streetcar Network

Streety McCarface

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From Steve Munro's website, at this link.



A proposed route network was shown in the workshops, but it is not in the final report.​

The changes include:​
  • Route 501A would operate between Neville Loop and Sunnyside Loop.
  • Route 501B would operate between Long Branch Loop and a new Riverside Loop to be built on the land now occupied by a parking lot on Broadview north of Queen. This land is owned by the TTC.
  • The consolidation of routes 502 Downtowner and 503 Kingston Road is permanent.
  • Route 503 would operate between Bingham Loop and Dufferin Loop.
  • Route 504B would operate between Broadview Station and Humber Loop, later to a proposed Park Lawn loop.
Looks like the 503 will have evening and weekend service.
They really need to rethink this numbering scheme. I get letters if one terminus differs, but if both termini differ, they should be signed as different routes.
504A -> 514
504B -> 504
501A -> 501
501B -> 507 (since 511 is taken, and it follows somewhat closely to the historical 507 route).

Interestingly, there's a lack of the 508. I wonder if it'll be dying again when the 504B is introduced.
 

W. K. Lis

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Where will the streetcar stops be located at The Queensway, Queen Street West, Roncesvalles Avenue, and King Street West intersection?

Currently, the 501 westbound stops on Queen Street West, at the northeast corner. The 501 eastbound stops at The Queensway, at the southwest corner. The 504A westbound stops on Roncesvalles Avenue, the northeast corner. The 504A eastbound stops on Roncesvalles Avenue, at the northwest corner.

Where would the 501A & 501B & 504A stop, going westbound on The Queensway? Where would the 501A & 501B stop, going eastbound on Queen Street West? Where would the 504A & 504B stop, going eastbound on King Street West?

The following is the January, 2019 intersection plan from link.

1576018116437.png
 

Towered

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Steve Munro has a new post today listing all (?) the route suggestions the TTC has received and among them is this one. Their answer is:
This is not in the City's Official Plan. (Also, not mentioned in the report, is that space for another route is not available at Keele Station and its geometry is such that adding a streetcar route would be difficult.)
Always lame excuses. There's a frigging gas station right next to the subway station that could easily be expropriated to expand its footprint.
 

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Streety McCarface

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Extending the 505 to Coxwell seems logical. It far enough east, and there are already sections of track on Coxwell.

For many years, the plan was to extend the 512 all the way to Kipling station. Why is the talk now of only going to Jane station?
If they get the 505 to Coxwell, I don't see why they can't replace the 22 with a streetcar line.
 

drum118

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Extending the 505 to Coxwell seems logical. It far enough east, and there are already sections of track on Coxwell.

For many years, the plan was to extend the 512 all the way to Kipling station. Why is the talk now of only going to Jane station?
The EA schedule for 2010 was to take the line to Scarlett Rd, but was put on the shelf.

Can't see it been taken to Jane as there is no place to build a loop like Scarlett Rd.

Will not see the line going to Kipling in anyone life time. If and when, it will have to run in Mix Traffic for most of the route.

I had to laugh when I saw the comments "NOT IN THE CITY OFFICIAL PLAN" showing TTC can't think outside the box. Not that hard to get a line(s) added to the Official Plan. The Official Plan is supposed to be updated every 5 years.

Taking 505 east of Broadview will require "ALL" on street parking remove and only a single lane of traffic in each direction with no left turn lanes.

See nothing wrong converting 22 bus to streetcar other than ridership.
 

drum118

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Where will the streetcar stops be located at The Queensway, Queen Street West, Roncesvalles Avenue, and King Street West intersection?

Currently, the 501 westbound stops on Queen Street West, at the northeast corner. The 501 eastbound stops at The Queensway, at the southwest corner. The 504A westbound stops on Roncesvalles Avenue, the northeast corner. The 504A eastbound stops on Roncesvalles Avenue, at the northwest corner.

Where would the 501A & 501B & 504A stop, going westbound on The Queensway? Where would the 501A & 501B stop, going eastbound on Queen Street West? Where would the 504A & 504B stop, going eastbound on King Street West?

The following is the January, 2019 intersection plan from link.

View attachment 219543
Stop remove for King/Queen on the south side and will see bump out platforms on Roncesvalles just north of the intersection. You see bit of the bump out on Roncesvalles today, but will rebuilt for the full length of the car as a true bump out platform for both direction. It shows up in another section for the plan work.

Queen St was to see bump out platforms on the east side of the intersection for both direction, but plan show only for the eastbound. Westbound will remain as is and a mistake.
 

W. K. Lis

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The EA schedule for 2010 was to take the line to Scarlett Rd, but was put on the shelf.

Can't see it been taken to Jane as there is no place to build a loop like Scarlett Rd.

Will not see the line going to Kipling in anyone life time. If and when, it will have to run in Mix Traffic for most of the route.

I had to laugh when I saw the comments "NOT IN THE CITY OFFICIAL PLAN" showing TTC can't think outside the box. Not that hard to get a line(s) added to the Official Plan. The Official Plan is supposed to be updated every 5 years.

Taking 505 east of Broadview will require "ALL" on street parking remove and only a single lane of traffic in each direction with no left turn lanes.

See nothing wrong converting 22 bus to streetcar other than ridership.
The 512 ST. CLAIR extension to Jane could be extended to the Jane Station. However, we would be better off ordering and using double-ended streetcars to fit into the Jane Station. (Could use double-ended streetcars on the 506 CARLTON into an expanded Keele Station.)

In the meantime, they can use an on-street loop using Jane, Dundas, Scarlett, and St. Clair, AFTER they rebuild and widen the Scarlett Road railway underpass (and fix the rainfall flooding at the Jane Street railway underpass).
 

drum118

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The 512 ST. CLAIR extension to Jane could be extended to the Jane Station. However, we would be better off ordering and using double-ended streetcars to fit into the Jane Station. (Could use double-ended streetcars on the 506 CARLTON into an expanded Keele Station.)

In the meantime, they can use an on-street loop using Jane, Dundas, Scarlett, and St. Clair, AFTER they rebuild and widen the Scarlett Road railway underpass (and fix the rainfall flooding at the Jane Street railway underpass).
Jane has been rule out as a surface route do to being to narrow and prefer to be underground. The plan for Jane was to have the line underground at St Clair and St Clair at Grade in it own ROW to Scarlett Rd with a loop on the west side of it. Taking the line under the new underpass is way down the road to Kipling.

The idea of taking the line to Dundas West is higher to happening than going west since there used to be tracks on Dundas. A new EA would be require to put tracks back on Dundas and would get 512 cars in/out of service faster than today, unless Hillcrest becomes their new home

Taking 506 to Keele is not only useless, but no room for it.
 

smallspy

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The EA schedule for 2010 was to take the line to Scarlett Rd, but was put on the shelf.

Can't see it been taken to Jane as there is no place to build a loop like Scarlett Rd.
The EA for the line itself has been postponed, but there have been several other EAs in the neighbourhood that have make sure that the line is accommodated.

As for the loop, it was originally to be planned to be located in the parkette in the north-east corner of Scarlett and St. Clair. I don't see why that would change.

Dan
 

Streety McCarface

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See nothing wrong converting 22 bus to streetcar other than ridership.
Just did some digging through the surface route statistics, and the 22 is sitting at 5550 PPD. Interestingly, the 502 has a ridership greater than that at 5970 PPD. Going back in time, the ridership of the 22 used to be 6,300 PPD in 2014, 7,100 PPD in 2012. The 502/503 was sitting at 7,800 in 2011, 6000 in 2012, and 6,200 in 2014. I've got no clue as to why these numbers are all over the place.

Nevertheless, the 22 is a 5.3km route, 2km on Coxwell. By contrast, the 509 sees 11K PPD and runs a 4km route. You could still run streetcars on Coxwell only during the peak hours and have it remain a 10-minute route, and run it down Kingston road when the 503 sees minimal service. Ridership would still be justified.
 

drum118

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The EA for the line itself has been postponed, but there have been several other EAs in the neighbourhood that have make sure that the line is accommodated.

As for the loop, it was originally to be planned to be located in the parkette in the north-east corner of Scarlett and St. Clair. I don't see why that would change.

Dan
I known the EA has been postpone with the city trying to buy property when possible to widen St Clair and to protect the ROW. The west side of Scarlett was the prefer site as it open up another option to expand west beside Dundas as a branch line.
 

innsertnamehere

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It's frustrating to me that they are not creating a dedicated left turn lane of some sort for vehicles at King and Roncesvalles, there is space for it and would improve service reliability immensely for the 504 in the evenings. The backups of left turning vehicles from King St can create 3-4 cycle waits to clear the intersection. Either getting cars through the intersection faster or out of the way of the streetcar would make a huge difference.
 
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blu_in_green

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Jane has been rule out as a surface route do to being to narrow and prefer to be underground. The plan for Jane was to have the line underground at St Clair and St Clair at Grade in it own ROW to Scarlett Rd with a loop on the west side of it. Taking the line under the new underpass is way down the road to Kipling.

The idea of taking the line to Dundas West is higher to happening than going west since there used to be tracks on Dundas. A new EA would be require to put tracks back on Dundas and would get 512 cars in/out of service faster than today, unless Hillcrest becomes their new home

Taking 506 to Keele is not only useless, but no room for it.
What is the proposed route to extend the Dundas West Streetcars north of Bloor?
 

DSC

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What is the proposed route to extend the Dundas West Streetcars north of Bloor?
This is FAR from being at the stage of being 'proposed'. This discussion really belongs in the transit fantasy thread. At the moment all the available $$ (of which there are far from enough!) are destined for the waterfront line(s) and the new streetcars needed to actually offer service on them.
 

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