TTC: Streetcar Network

[Jonny5]

Here's an out there idea, though not as far fetched as some: there is a large block of vacant land at Parliament and Shuter. A sign on the property says it is a "future school site" for the TCDSB, though they appear to have left it vacant for quite some time (two years I think?). There is a lot of space there. The previous school, which was demolished, took up only 50% of the land, and that school was a low rise two floor building. Could a small part of this land be turned into a loop to facilitate short turns at Parliament for several different routes? This could especially work if the new school is built to say, three or four floors instead of two. There would still be a large open space for recess, sports, etc...

 

[W. K. Lis]

I can see the Humber streetcar loop being "moved" to the "new" Park Lawn Loop. The Humber Loop could remain as an emergency loop, in case of problems along Lake Shore Blvd. between Humber and Park Lawn.

 

[DSC]

Here's an out there idea, though not as far fetched as some: there is a large block of vacant land at Parliament and Shuter. A sign on the property says it is a "future school site" for the TCDSB, though they appear to have left it vacant for quite some time (two years I think?). There is a lot of space there. The previous school, which was demolished, took up only 50% of the land, and that school was a low rise two floor building. Could a small part of this land be turned into a loop to facilitate short turns at Parliament for several different routes? This could especially work if the new school is built to say, three or four floors instead of two. There would still be a large open space for recess, sports, etc...

Of course, one can put a loop anywhere one wants but why would you put one here? OK it's empty but you need to look at alternatives that will actually provide useful service benefits or transfer points. The TTC can already loop from eastbound King or westbound from Queen via Parliament/Dundas/Broadview or use Distillery Loop and the loop they have (had?) planned for on Broadview just north of Queen plus the loop that will need to exist at south end of Broadview if/when THAT extension is built. Surely better to increase possible curves at appropriate places all over the network to allow for more flexibility. (At one time there was talk of creating a loop at the west side of the Don River bridge on King/Queen that would allow moves between King and Queen and this could be connected to Dundas by adding track on River between King & Queen. Frankly, the possibilities are many but the need is really not there. Building loops is not cost-free and it is probably far better to use scarce $$ to add curves or, for example, add alternatives like fixing track on Adelaide or even extending track on Richmond to Spadina. Adding a new loop on Parliament or almost anywhere is really a subject for the fantasy thread!

 

[W. K. Lis]

TTC is not going to like those hyper-curvy roads.. expect them to be "straightened" before this thing is approved.

I would have used the eastern section of the "Relief Road" for the westbound streetcars to reach the Park Lawn GO Station. The eastbound streetcars could use the eastern section of the "Loop Road". I'm assuming that the track splitting at the Park Lawn GO Station are to serve the eastbound and westbound streetcars separately.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I would have used the eastern section of the "Relief Road" for the westbound streetcars to reach the Park Lawn GO Station. The eastbound streetcars could use the eastern section of the "Loop Road". I'm assuming that the track splitting at the Park Lawn GO Station are to serve the eastbound and westbound streetcars separately.

Note how they have positioned the streetcar loop and the Park Lawn GO Station close to each other, to reduce the walking distance between the streetcars and the GO trains.

Now look at this image of the Brown's Line streetcar loop from Google Maps, at link.

The city, the TTC, and Metrolinx need to do a rebuild, so that people do not have to safari across the asphalt desert between the GO Station entrance and the streetcar loop platform. They should easily move the tracks closer, and include a tail track or storage loop for disabled streetcars, along with proper bus bays for TTC , MiWay, etc. buses.

In exchange, the old loop could be use for (paid) parking.

 

[Jonny5]

Of course, one can put a loop anywhere one wants but why would you put one here? OK it's empty but you need to look at alternatives that will actually provide useful service benefits or transfer points. The TTC can already loop from eastbound King or westbound from Queen via Parliament/Dundas/Broadview or use Distillery Loop and the loop they have (had?) planned for on Broadview just north of Queen plus the loop that will need to exist at south end of Broadview if/when THAT extension is built. Surely better to increase possible curves at appropriate places all over the network to allow for more flexibility. (At one time there was talk of creating a loop at the west side of the Don River bridge on King/Queen that would allow moves between King and Queen and this could be connected to Dundas by adding track on River between King & Queen. Frankly, the possibilities are many but the need is really not there. Building loops is not cost-free and it is probably far better to use scarce $$ to add curves or, for example, add alternatives like fixing track on Adelaide or even extending track on Richmond to Spadina. Adding a new loop on Parliament or almost anywhere is really a subject for the fantasy thread!

They've used that long Parliament/Dundas/Broadview loop for scheduled detours and it was a disaster. At rush hour you would have five cars out of service looping around there for 10 minutes in traffic. Parliament connects multiple routes, and I pointed out there's an opportunity to build a new loop in a spot that's in proximity to several of them with curves in place to facilitate it's function at the adjacent intersections. On a scale of streetcar fantasy proposals, that's far over on the reality side compared to many. But, really, this was only a simple respose to the coversation about the Broadview loop no longer being available to build and the discussion about possible alternatives.

 

[dowlingm]

They've used that long Parliament/Dundas/Broadview loop for scheduled detours and it was a disaster. At rush hour you would have five cars out of service looping around there for 10 minutes in traffic. Parliament connects multiple routes, and I pointed out there's an opportunity to build a new loop in a spot that's in proximity to several of them with curves in place to facilitate it's function at the adjacent intersections. On a scale of streetcar fantasy proposals, that's far over on the reality side compared to many. But, really, this was only a simple respose to the coversation about the Broadview loop no longer being available to build and the discussion about possible alternatives.

I can’t imagine a school would want to risk the impact of wheel squeal on their activities.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

Note how they have positioned the streetcar loop and the Park Lawn GO Station close to each other, to reduce the walking distance between the streetcars and the GO trains.

Now look at this image of the Brown's Line streetcar loop from Google Maps, at link.

View attachment 210949

The city, the TTC, and Metrolinx need to do a rebuild, so that people do not have to safari across the asphalt desert between the GO Station entrance and the streetcar loop platform. They should easily move the tracks closer, and include a tail track or storage loop for disabled streetcars, along with proper bus bays for TTC , MiWay, etc. buses.

In exchange, the old loop could be use for (paid) parking.

That seems like quite a squeeze for a new loop there although I have used that loop quite a few times riding the 501, and I defentily think it needs to he moved to where the lot is now.

 

[micheal_can]

That seems like quite a squeeze for a new loop there although I have used that loop quite a few times riding the 501, and I defentily think it needs to he moved to where the lot is now.

Would this be a good reason to start converting to trains that are double ended?

 

[DSC]

Would this be a good reason to start converting to trains that are double ended?

Changing to double ended is not all positive. If one was planning a new system it might be good but we already have lots of loops and lots of streetcars and having double ended cars means far less seating.

 

[micheal_can]

Changing to double ended is not all positive. If one was planning a new system it might be good but we already have lots of loops and lots of streetcars and having double ended cars means far less seating.

Could this be why all new lines are being built as LRTs?

 

[mdrejhon]

Could this be why all new lines are being built as LRTs?

One could also use longer streetcars or chain the streetcars into LRT type trains -- this has happened to some former streetcar routes elsewhere in the world.

You could hold off double-ended operation except for longer trains. Kind TTC would be a candidate for eventual complete LRT conversion since it will intersect with 8 subway stations (once all new stations are built, Ontario Line, Liberty GO, etc).

 

[tmlittle]

One could also use longer streetcars or chain the streetcars into LRT type trains -- this has happened to some former streetcar routes elsewhere in the world.

You could hold off double-ended operation except for longer trains. Kind TTC would be a candidate for eventual complete LRT conversion since it will intersect with 8 subway stations (once all new stations are built, Ontario Line, Liberty GO, etc).

What are your thoughts on local frequent-stop services if high-ridership streetcar routes were to LRTify? In an ideal world, I feel like there would be "local" and "express" streetcars along routes like King rather than just eliminating half the stops and forcing people to walk, or ride a bus along a route that realistically shouldn't have cars anyway, but good luck finding political will for an initiative like that (converting an arterial to streetcar-only).

 

[Jonny5]

What are your thoughts on local frequent-stop services if high-ridership streetcar routes were to LRTify? In an ideal world, I feel like there would be "local" and "express" streetcars along routes like King rather than just eliminating half the stops and forcing people to walk, or ride a bus along a route that realistically shouldn't have cars anyway, but good luck finding political will for an initiative like that (converting an arterial to streetcar-only).

Using King from Parliament to Dufferin as an example; it's not actually that far or that long of a ride. If you are removing stops or making "express" streetcars for this area you would likely remove under five stops--maybe even only three--from the current route which will save only a few minutes for the small number who travel through the whole thing. If you really want to speed things up for riders from the current implementation the change is to allow more than one streetcar to load and unload at the very busy stops (Yonge and University); then to force red traffic lights out of the equation with location tracking; then to move fare the payments (presto) away from the doors to stop imbeciles from slowing everything down by standing in everyones way.

 

[tmlittle]

Using King from Parliament to Dufferin as an example; it's not actually that far or that long of a ride. If you are removing stops or making "express" streetcars for this area you would likely remove under five stops--maybe even only three--from the current route which will save only a few minutes for the small number who travel through the whole thing. If you really want to speed things up for riders from the current implementation the change is to allow more than one streetcar to load and unload at the very busy stops (Yonge and University); then to force red traffic lights out of the equation with location tracking; then to move fare the payments (presto) away from the doors to stop imbeciles from slowing everything down by standing in everyones way.

All of that sounds more reasonable to me than removing stops, which is something I see argued for a lot by people who think they're pursuing LRTification.