TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[innsertnamehere]

plus the fact that the sheppard lines total capacity right now is about a quarter of what Yonges capacity is.


Sheppard is also incredibly empty off peak, more so than any other line.

 

[W. K. Lis]

During the rush hour, Sheppard trains are every 5± minutes. During the day, Sheppard trains are every 5± minutes. During the evening, Sheppard trains are every 5± minutes. During the weekend, Sheppard trains are every 5± minutes.

 

[Electrify]

Like I said, I'm not trying to paint the line as a breakthrough success, but it is surprisingly busy during the rush hour. Perhaps not to the same degree as the Yonge line, but that level of overcrowding should not be the bar to determine a line's success. During the rush hour, it is probably comparable to the Spadina line.

Perhaps lower the frequency during off-peak and increasing frequency during the rush hour could be a good strategy to control service loss.

 

[Ansem]

During the rush hour, Sheppard trains are every 5± minutes. During the day, Sheppard trains are every 5± minutes. During the evening, Sheppard trains are every 5± minutes. During the weekend, Sheppard trains are every 5± minutes.

Which is why I always said that the TTC could have managed that line better and saved $:

-Off peak should be every 8-10 minutes (which is common around the world)
-Closed at midnight instead of 2am (which is insane)


That's how the STM used to manage the blue line when the ridership was low for almost 20 years:
-Every 10 minutes
-Off peak 3 train set, peak is 6 train set
-Closed at 11h15pm and now closes later since the ridership increased.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Which is why I always said that the TTC could have managed that line better and saved $:

-Off peak should be every 8-10 minutes (which is common around the world)
-Closed at midnight instead of 2am (which is insane)


That's how the STM used to manage the blue line when the ridership was low for almost 20 years:
-Every 10 minutes
-Off peak 3 train set, peak is 6 train set
-Closed at 11h15pm and now closes later since the ridership increased.

ALL rapid transit lines in Toronto, which WILL include the Eglinton Crosstown, Finch West, and Sheppard East LRTs, are to be held to a 5± minute headway... at the moment.

 

[Ansem]

which WILL include the Eglinton Crosstown, Finch West, and Sheppard East LRTs, are to be held to a 5± minute headway... at the moment.

It remains to be seen for the at grade portions of the LRT. If the lines were maintained and operated by Metrolinx or a third party, I'd have more faith but since it's the TTC... I'll have to see it to believe it.

 

[nfitz]

That crowding is largely artificial. The Sheppard Stub only has 4 car trains. And they arrive much less frequently than on the rest of the system. Its not uncommon to see next train arrival over 5 minutes on Sheppard in the middle of the day. I'm sure that if if it used 6 car sets with arrival every 2 minutes the line would feel empty.

For PM rush hour, the Sheppard subway is scheduled every 5.5 minutes, while the Yonge subway is scheduled every 2.52 minutes. So you will have occasions when if everything is running as scheduled, you get three 6-car Yonge trains providing riders for a single 4-car Sheppard train.

Sheppard ridership remains atrocious ... and amazingly in the new 2013 subway ridership statistics that TTC released earlier this month, daily ridership on the line was down 2% from last year! Interestingly, ridership was up at every station except Sheppard-Yonge and Don Mills. Don Mills ridership was down almost 6.5%.

I wonder if this drop in ridership is in relation to the new Finch East Express Bus from Finch station to Don Mills and Finch? Perhaps not, as all the lines were down except paradoxically the SRT. However the increase at all the stations except Don Mills is interesting.

 

[innsertnamehere]

They will be maintained and owned by Metrolinx, the TTC will simply be contracted for operations.

 

[Ansem]

They will be maintained and owned by Metrolinx, the TTC will simply be contracted for operations.

TTC operating the lines is the biggest liability in my opinion. I now live on St.Clair and having to wait for 15 minutes for 4-5 streecars to show up in my face in the PM rush hour on a line with it's own ROW is INEXCUSABLE. I just came back from Italy and UK.

Rome Streetcars in Rush hours?
Fine except when tourists slows down the service by walking on the ROW

Naples in Rush hours?
Nobody respects the ROW so...a disater

Florence?
Quiet town, can't compare

Milan which is very similar to Toronto?
Working great.

If cars aren't driving in the ROW and that avenue isn't bombarded with lost tourist trying to find their way, how on earth does the TTC does such a bad job on that line??? King, Queen, Dundas, Bathurst...I get it. Spadina? I get it too since there's a lot of people using it and walking all over the ROW instead of using the intersections but St.CLair should be smooth and easy...

 

[ShonTron]

Which is why I always said that the TTC could have managed that line better and saved $:

-Off peak should be every 8-10 minutes (which is common around the world)
-Closed at midnight instead of 2am (which is insane)


That's how the STM used to manage the blue line when the ridership was low for almost 20 years:
-Every 10 minutes
-Off peak 3 train set, peak is 6 train set
-Closed at 11h15pm and now closes later since the ridership increased.

This won't save that much. The labour savings of two hours less a day for having a collector at Bayview, Bessarian, Leslie and Don Mills and the four train crews will be offset by requiring 6-8 buses and drivers come from somewhere else and provide even 8-10 minute service on the 85 to Sheppard-Yonge. Energy costs will be slightly less, but since stations are still lit and heated after the subway closes, it won't be much either.

You would save a crew by going to a train every 8 minutes off-peak, that would essentially be most of your savings right there.

 

[andrewpmk]

For PM rush hour, the Sheppard subway is scheduled every 5.5 minutes, while the Yonge subway is scheduled every 2.52 minutes. So you will have occasions when if everything is running as scheduled, you get three 6-car Yonge trains providing riders for a single 4-car Sheppard train.

Sheppard ridership remains atrocious ... and amazingly in the new 2013 subway ridership statistics that TTC released earlier this month, daily ridership on the line was down 2% from last year! Interestingly, ridership was up at every station except Sheppard-Yonge and Don Mills. Don Mills ridership was down almost 6.5%.

I wonder if this drop in ridership is in relation to the new Finch East Express Bus from Finch station to Don Mills and Finch? Perhaps not, as all the lines were down except paradoxically the SRT. However the increase at all the stations except Don Mills is interesting.

Maybe the ridership counts aren't very accurate? There is usually an open entrance manned by a person at the Fairview Mall exit of Don Mills station, maybe people going through that entrance are not being counted. The 199 bus on Finch has existed since 2010, so that can't be the reason.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The sad thing about the Sheppard Subway is that ridership will very likely take another hit when the Eglinton Crosstown opens. And I can see it decreasing even further once the Finch West LRT is extended to Yonge, since riders in the area will likely take the Finch Express Bus to the FWLRT rather than taking Sheppard to Yonge, Yonge to Finch and then transferring to FWLRT. And heavens forbid if the proposed Don Mills LRT or subway were built and connected to DRL, the effect on Sheppard Subway ridership would be nothing short of cataclysmic.

 

[nfitz]

Maybe the ridership counts aren't very accurate? There is usually an open entrance manned by a person at the Fairview Mall exit of Don Mills station, maybe people going through that entrance are not being counted. The 199 bus on Finch has existed since 2010, so that can't be the reason.

2010? Gosh, time flies.

That isn't the reason then.

Accuracy could be part of the reason. Will be interesting to see if the trend holds in a few years. They don't of course count every day ...

Still, I'm curious just where TTC ridership is increasing, given the subway ridership is clearly down from last year.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

TTC operating the lines is the biggest liability in my opinion. I now live on St.Clair and having to wait for 15 minutes for 4-5 streecars to show up in my face in the PM rush hour on a line with it's own ROW is INEXCUSABLE. I just came back from Italy and UK.

Rome Streetcars in Rush hours?
Fine except when tourists slows down the service by walking on the ROW

Naples in Rush hours?
Nobody respects the ROW so...a disater

Florence?
Quiet town, can't compare

Milan which is very similar to Toronto?
Working great.

If cars aren't driving in the ROW and that avenue isn't bombarded with lost tourist trying to find their way, how on earth does the TTC does such a bad job on that line??? King, Queen, Dundas, Bathurst...I get it. Spadina? I get it too since there's a lot of people using it and walking all over the ROW instead of using the intersections but St.CLair should be smooth and easy...

1. Metrolinx has zero experience operating LRT. We can't assume that they'll be very good at it.

2. This shouldn't be a problem on the SELRT, FWLRT or ECLRT. The bunching controls will *apparently* be better than they are on the streetcar lines, since they feature signal priority, and better schedule control. I'll be surprised if bunching is a major issue on these lines. And I doubt you'll ever experience waiting 15 minutes to have three light rail vehicles arrive all at once.

 

[datamouse]

It seems strange for there to be such a fluctuation in the ridership at Bessarion (almost +25%) when the area hasn't yet undergone any real change. It's in line with the ridership levels over the last few years but there shouldn't be such a large variance from one year to the next.