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TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

Everyone talks about mid-rise buildings, but the fact of the matter is, developers don't want to build them. And I don't see that changing. And even if they did build mid-rise on Sheppard, you'd just decrease the amount of people who could take the subway anyway, so I don't see how that's preferable.

I like mid-rise as much as anyone, but I don't think our subways should be lined with mid-rise as Parker implies.
 
That works where subways also act as rapid transit to move mass volumes of people over short ranges in addition to long distance like with the B/D subway, where there's also a density of streets and housing that comes off of the street along with it.

It's been suggested that within the 416 it's Vienna surrounded by Phoenix.
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
Everyone talks about mid-rise buildings, but the fact of the matter is, developers don't want to build them. And I don't see that changing. And even if they did build mid-rise on Sheppard, you'd just decrease the amount of people who could take the subway anyway, so I don't see how that's preferable.

I like mid-rise as much as anyone, but I don't think our subways should be lined with mid-rise as Parker implies.
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I remember the protests in the 1960's near High Park over the building of the then new highrises. Expect to experience protests for any new highrises in the neighbourhood in question.
 
I'd still say that the ideal outcome would be a conversion of the Sheppard Subway to LRT and a westward extension past Downsview, at-grade. That would yield us the sort of northern crosstown that Sheppard was supposed to be. It'll be slower than originally intended. But something is better than nothing.
 
Adjei said:
Yeah I support the western extension to Downsview in the future but an extension to Mccowan or Scarborough Town Centre just does not make sense.
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Maybe not McCowan. But if they stay with the subway. Going until Agincourt for now makes a lot of sense. In reality, the entire case for LRT is based on demand west of Agincourt. East of Agincourt, demand is lower and the corridor has lots of room to put in bus lanes.
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
Everyone talks about mid-rise buildings, but the fact of the matter is, developers don't want to build them. And I don't see that changing. And even if they did build mid-rise on Sheppard, you'd just decrease the amount of people who could take the subway anyway, so I don't see how that's preferable.

I like mid-rise as much as anyone, but I don't think our subways should be lined with mid-rise as Parker implies.
Click to expand...

Actually, developers/builders are actively pursuing changes to our building code to make mid-rise more practical. Currently, wood frame buildings are only allowed up to 4 storeys.....this means anything above that has to be of concrete construction and, therefore, the economics of 5 and 6 storey buildings don't work.

They have been trying to get the building code to allow up to 6 storeys with wood frame construction. So, yes, they do want to build them....they just need the rules adjusted (as they have been in BC) to make the economics work.
 
kEiThZ said:
I'd still say that the ideal outcome would be a conversion of the Sheppard Subway to LRT and a westward extension past Downsview, at-grade. That would yield us the sort of northern crosstown that Sheppard was supposed to be. It'll be slower than originally intended. But something is better than nothing.
Click to expand...

I understand the logic of what you are saying and it certainly will help connectivity but I just don't think it's a wise use of funds.

If it costs $500 million just to convert the subway {to say nothing of the shutdown time}, that money could be spent expanding the subway 2 km westward. With the amount still needed to take the LRT to Spadina, it would be the same as just extending the subway there. The subway would be faster and much cheaper to run due to automation which is impossible if the Sheppard LRT is continued west.
 
But according to the raw intelligence of Stinz, if it is elevated or runs at grade then it is no longer a subway.Who is this woman anyway?

Elevation is the norm around the world in suburban areas NOT the exception. It helps to explain why other cities have built rapid transit at a furious pace and Toronto has basically seen nothing for a generation. As far as at-grade down the middle of the street these are also used although not as commonly as elevation. What many cities do is run the line in the middle of the street but in a ditch of about 5 meters with concrete barrier walls. It greatly reduces construction cost and time and makes underpasses/stations at main intersections a relatively easy affair as they are already trenched and just need a 3 or 4 meter decline for clearance.
They also make bridges over the subway for cross streets easy and cheap to build as due to the subway trench they are more of a ramp than a bridge. Some cities also build in U-turns into the design which is an advantage that at grade LRT doesn't have.
 
You almost never see trenched lines in the middle of roads. sometimes on the side of roads (such as Calgary with their new LRT line, or even Toronto where the Yonge line parallels Yonge street around Davisville), but very rarely in the middle.
 
The other day I took the Sheppard line to Leslie to catch the GO train. I can't speak for midday, but during rush hour it was packed! Large crowds were waiting for the train and the car I was in saw a significant amount of people standing, including myself. I even saw quite a few people get off at Bessarion!

The only reason I didn't take any pictures is because I was afraid they would be used as propaganda against the LRT. LRT could likely handle the crowds, and I support Keith's idea of converting the tunnel into an LRT (I'm not even against running modified T1s or another type of subway train in the middle of Sheppard). But during rush hour they could probably increase the frequency to under 5 minutes, if not run longer trains.

Check out the Sheppard platform at 4:30 sometime if you don't believe me.
 
That crowding is largely artificial. The Sheppard Stub only has 4 car trains. And they arrive much less frequently than on the rest of the system. Its not uncommon to see next train arrival over 5 minutes on Sheppard in the middle of the day. I'm sure that if if it used 6 car sets with arrival every 2 minutes the line would feel empty.
 
And even when the Sheppard trains appear to be packed, it's still nothing compared to the Yonge trains, I doubt there are even half the number of standees in each car.
 
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