TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[TheTigerMaster]

Ideally we need both closely spaced lines and more "U-bahn-like" lines. That's why I've been advocating for connecting the Scarborough Subway to a TTC rail line that runs parallel to the existing GO commuter line that would then connect to the DRL. You could get from Lawrence East Station to King-Yonge Station in less than 25 minutes. And this relieves the Bloor-Danforth of the capacity issues associated with the Scarborough extension. This would be a relatively inexpensive solution at ~$1 Billion and would by far be the fastest of all the proposals for getting from Scarborough to the core. The one catch about this is that it requires some property expropriations. Mainly warehouses and single family homes.

Ugh... my image host screwed up the colours and there are some small errors. But you get the point.

Some may suggest using GO Electrification as an option for this route, but the reality is that it would be a poor solution. GO will never be able to conveniently run trains every 120 - 180 seconds like the TTC. Nor will they ever be able to connect directly to the DRL and they will never be able to provide a seamless ride. And as insert mentioned, GO won't land you in the middle of the downtown core either.

 

[AKS]

scarb is under-developed for a reason, no one wants to go from bus to srt to subway to streetcar or bus to go somewhere unless it is as a last option. I'm anxious to see what kind of developments occur when shovels hit the ground on the BD extension.

I don't think that's the reason scarboro is under developed. I found a lot of issues even when living in STC.
1) The area isn't too safe at night. There's not enough street lights.
2) There's not as many amenities as downtown within walking distance.
3) People living in the condo not respecting the property. Leaving garbage around, vandalizing elevator button area, etc.
4) The SRT hours are not long enough. They don't open early like the subway line does. The hours are shorter on the SRT.
5) The train isn't convenient because when it snows and freezes, sometimes the trains stop running because rails are frozen over.
6) The SRT sometimes go at a snails pace. It's not because of the stops.

Even if you have a subway. If it goes above ground, you're in trouble in the winter if the tracks freeze. Best station to get on is Woodbine because it starts underground. Even Vic Park is iffy but still better than Warden because it's only a short way before it goes underground.

But with subways, even they are problematic. The subway system is so old, there are always signal problems so the trains stop for long durations. The trains are old too because sometimes I hear announcements that the train in front has problem closing doors which slows down the other trains. It's not all glorious even having a subway. If there's no issues, everything is fine and dandy. If there's train issues, expect to take an extra 15-30 min extra or more depending how far you travel and how long it takes them to resolve. There's also jumping in front of trains, medical emergencies, people causing problems on the train etc that cause delays. In the end, no matter what, driving is more convenient unless you live downtown. People can't afford to be late for work, so they choose to drive. Some people will choose to take the TTC if they want to go downtown rather than drive. If those people are taking the TTC downtown, it will cause more congestion to the already congested Yonge-Union trains during rush hour. They're still trying to deal with the congestion issue and city hall wants to add more congestion to it without even fixing the current problem.

You issue that nobody "wants to go from bus to srt to subway to streetcar or bus to go somewhere" will still be there even if the subway is built. They still need to get on the bus to go to subway and switch to street car or bus. The only difference is the transfer from srt to subway eliminated. It's only a few minutes difference. Not much time savings.

 

[Rainforest]

Ideally we need both closely spaced lines and more "U-bahn-like" lines. That's why I've been advocating for connecting the Scarborough Subway to a TTC rail line that runs parallel to the existing GO commuter line that would then connect to the DRL. You could get from Lawrence East Station to King-Yonge Station in less than 25 minutes. And this relieves the Bloor-Danforth of the capacity issues associated with the Scarborough extension. This would be a relatively inexpensive solution at ~$1 Billion and would by far be the fastest of all the proposals for getting from Scarborough to the core. The one catch about this is that it requires some property expropriations. Mainly warehouses and single family homes.

It is a good solution network-wise, but it would cost many times more than 1 Billion. The rail corridor between Kennedy station and the point where Uxbridge sub branches off the Lakeshore East corridor is not wide enough for 2 subway tracks + one mainline track. You will have to either tunnel, or completely kick mainline trains off this corridor, and Markham will be very unhappy in the latter case.

The Lakeshore East corridor is wide enough for 3 or 4 tracks, but it provides frequent GO service and has some freight traffic; it is unlikely that room for 2 subway tracks can be found there. Again, the subway will have to be tunneled.

Basically, you are adding about 10 km of new subway tunnel between the Eglinton / Danforth intersection and the point where your new line merges into DRL.

 

[W. K. Lis]

You take it from Kennedy? Different folks different strokes.. The GO line only saves around 10minutes from there, which can easily be lost by the extra walking distance once you get downtown.

With the subway closed south of Bloor this Thanksgiving weekend, taking to GO to downtown is an excellent option. Especially with all the road closures around Union Station, its better to walk from GO at Union.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Yes, for this weekend. Not that trains even run on the stouffville corridor on weekends however.. Buses only go from Unionville.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

that t is a good solution network-wise, but it would cost many times more than 1 Billion. The rail corridor between Kennedy station and the point where Uxbridge sub branches off the Lakeshore East corridor is not wide enough for 2 subway tracks + one mainline track. You will have to either tunnel, or completely kick mainline trains off this corridor, and Markham will be very unhappy in the latter case.

The Lakeshore East corridor is wide enough for 3 or 4 tracks, but it provides frequent GO service and has some freight traffic; it is unlikely that room for 2 subway tracks can be found there. Again, the subway will have to be tunneled.

Basically, you are adding about 10 km of new subway tunnel between the Eglinton / Danforth intersection and the point where your new line merges into DRL.

I don't think it would have to be tunneled. Just widen the rail corridor.

The City would need to expropriate some of the properties along the corridor. But none of the buildgs are anything of significance. Just some warehouses and single family homes.

The biggest obstical to this line would be the NIMBY factor. But this wouldn't be the fist time that the City woild have done large scale expropriation for transit.

I am somewhat hopeful that this will be built. Something similar was proposed by Stintz in her One City plan. We may see it come up in Chow's campaign now that they're apparently working together. Andy Byford also proposed a similar alignment, but didn't include the Don Mills branch.

 

[Rainforest]

^ Well, expropriation of properties is a very hard sell these days.

Earlier proposals by Stintz and Byford were based on mainline technology, rather than a subway line. With mainline trains only, you can use same tracks for Markham GO service and for occasional freights. In that case, presumably they can do with 2 tracks in the Uxbridge sub, and 4 tracks in Lakeshore East between Union and the point where Uxbridge sub branches off.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

^ Well, expropriation of properties is a very hard sell these days.

Earlier proposals by Stintz and Byford were based on mainline technology, rather than a subway line. With mainline trains only, you can use same tracks for Markham GO service and for occasional freights. In that case, presumably they can do with 2 tracks in the Uxbridge sub, and 4 tracks in Lakeshore East between Union and the point where Uxbridge sub branches off.

That proposal is as good as dead. I can't see Metrolinx agreeing to that. Coordinating subways and GO on the same rails would be an operational nightmare.

 

[W. K. Lis]

That proposal is as good as dead. I can't see Metrolinx agreeing to that. Coordinating subways and GO on the same rails would be an operational nightmare.

Different track gauge between HRT subway and GO trains. Same track gauge with LRT and GO trains, but as you say coordinating schedules would be a problem.

 

[ssiguy2]

As much as Sheppard didn't need a subway to begin with the reality is that it isn't going anywhere so Toronto should turn a lemon into lemonade.

I have never supported a eastern subway extension but I think a western extension to hook up with the Spadina extension makes perfect sense. It greatly enhances connectivity and some are forgetting that when the Spadina Ext opens, Sheppard will become MUCH busier as getting to York U is an actual possibility within a reasonable amount of time. Sheppard would go from a stubway to an 11km line that actually improves people's commutes as opposed to being nothing more than a pain in the ass of a transfer.

 

[Adjei]

As much as Sheppard didn't need a subway to begin with the reality is that it isn't going anywhere so Toronto should turn a lemon into lemonade.

I have never supported a eastern subway extension but I think a western extension to hook up with the Spadina extension makes perfect sense. It greatly enhances connectivity and some are forgetting that when the Spadina Ext opens, Sheppard will become MUCH busier as getting to York U is an actual possibility within a reasonable amount of time. Sheppard would go from a stubway to an 11km line that actually improves people's commutes as opposed to being nothing more than a pain in the ass of a transfer.

Yeah I support the western extension to Downsview in the future but an extension to Mccowan or Scarborough Town Centre just does not make sense.

 

[BurlOak]

As much as Sheppard didn't need a subway to begin with the reality is that it isn't going anywhere so Toronto should turn a lemon into lemonade.

I have never supported a eastern subway extension but I think a western extension to hook up with the Spadina extension makes perfect sense. It greatly enhances connectivity and some are forgetting that when the Spadina Ext opens, Sheppard will become MUCH busier as getting to York U is an actual possibility within a reasonable amount of time. Sheppard would go from a stubway to an 11km line that actually improves people's commutes as opposed to being nothing more than a pain in the ass of a transfer.

You seem to be assuming that the Sheppard line will go all the way from Don Mills to York U. We are lucky that the south-west quadrant of Sheppard and Allen/Dufferin is relatively empty so all sorts of reconfiguration is possible. That new Sheppard West Station (why don't they change the names now to aviod confusion) has the provisions for a short-turn for the Spadina line, so it is easy enough to slot in a Sheppard train for the NW trip to York. The Spadina track is a bit deep, but thanks to the openess, the interlining with Sheppard is not that difficult.

 

[Hipster Duck]

re: Sheppard west subway.

I wonder how much the City could offset construction costs by expropriating properties, demolishing them, building cut and cover on those lands, and then selling the land back to developers at upzoned costs.

Normally, I don't advocate this strategy, but Sheppard Ave West from Senlac to the Don and then from Bathurst to Faywood mostly consists of dumpy bungalows owned by landlords, rather than owner-occupiers. These people are probably a lot less sentimental about their properties and probably a lot more interested in selling quickly and making a profit than people who live in the homes they own. Moreover, it would probably reduce construction costs (and construction time) considerably, rather than building 2 TBM extraction sites and then having the TBMs tunnel deep enough to go under the Don Valley. I still think building a parallel subway viaduct over the Don would be cheaper.

EDIT: Just thought about the feasibility of tunnel boring. If the tail tracks end at Senlac, and we have to bore under the Don River, would we even have a feasible length of gradient to tunnel underneath the river? This is admittedly a very amateur back-of-the-napkin calculation, but if we assume that the tail track at Senlac is 30m above the river floor (Earl Bales ski hill is 43 vertical meters), and that the tunnel, itself, has to be about 5 m below the bottom of the riverbed (I'm just guessing here), and that the subway has a maximum grade of 3.5%, that would mean that the tunnel would have to descend 35m over a distance of 1000m. The distance from Senlac to the river is about 500 m.

 

[Forgotten]

As much as Sheppard didn't need a subway to begin with the reality is that it isn't going anywhere so Toronto should turn a lemon into lemonade.

I have never supported a eastern subway extension but I think a western extension to hook up with the Spadina extension makes perfect sense. It greatly enhances connectivity and some are forgetting that when the Spadina Ext opens, Sheppard will become MUCH busier as getting to York U is an actual possibility within a reasonable amount of time. Sheppard would go from a stubway to an 11km line that actually improves people's commutes as opposed to being nothing more than a pain in the ass of a transfer.

There's about 5 bus loads of people waiting to use that $2 billion expenditure. Clearly it needs to be done now.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Subways can change a neighbourhood – Returning Resident

http://sweptmedia.ca/subways-can-change-a-neighbourhood-north-york/

.....

The “Stubway†has lingered in the east end of Toronto since 2002, and has quietly transformed the immediate area surrounding the stations on the subway line, including Sheppard and the Fairview Mall area, into the familiar inner city jungle. Construction is non-stop, high-rises spike out of the ground in every direction like stalagmites, and that exclusive sensation I felt back in the day was immediately lost as I returned to the neighborhood a few days ago.

- “Subways are suitable where you have high-density populations, and conversely, wherever you have subways, you attract high density populations,†said Vice-Chair of the North York Community Council John Parker. “Sheppard would be a far more attractive roadway if it consisted of a corridor of mid-rise buildings, rather than nodes of high-rise buildings.â€

- Long-time resident of Shaughnessy Blvd., Karifa Magassouba, has witnessed this gradual transformation around the Fairview Mall area as well. --- “It seems like buildings upon buildings are being built constantly, to the point where if you go out on to your balcony hoping to get a view of the city, you’ll be looking into someone else’s place,†he said. “The mall is also more fashion oriented than it used to be, and has a very clean and modern look. There’s a noticeable difference in culture in the area.â€

- Councilor Parker believes this change in culture comes as a direct result of a subway line running through the community. --- “The single biggest factor in determining the shape and growth of any city is the kind of transit system we lay down,†he said. “It’s not just a matter of figuring out how to move a lot of people a long distance as quickly as possible. That is a part of the task, but not the most important one. The most important part is recognizing that we’re building a city, and when we plan a transit system we’re also laying down the fundamental structure that will greatly influence everything around it.â€

- The effects of subways on their immediate surroundings are clearly visible, and have greatly changed certain aspects of the communities that house these stations. However, when you’re actually travelling along the Sheppard-Yonge line you realize it’s often quite barren. The eerie silence consumes stations and subway cars along the line for hours at times, making you feel like you’re in cave rather than a subway station. Even at peak hours when it’s at its busiest you will find a spot to sit during your travels, unlike the transit on the Bloor-Danforth line, where you’re on the verge of being squeezed out the door.

- “As a former resident of North York I certainly welcomed the extension. It made it a lot more convenient to commute to school and to work than it was back in the day when we had to take a bus or a trolley car to the city limits,†he said. However he was quick to add that other efficient transit options exist that can still connect the city together. --- “Subways aren’t the only way of doing this. They’re a particularly expensive way, and for the same investment of dollars w can achieve a lot more satisfying results if were to go light rail,†he said.

.....