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TTC: Other Items (catch all)

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The Overground map I posted as an addendum to my previous post. Look, no matter which way you cut it, it's a hell of a lot easier getting around London by transit than it is in Toronto.

Toronto is far from being a terrible transit city, but it's not a good one either, by any means! Why this sudden surge of apologists for Toronto dire state of transit? Even the Toronto's former transit and political honchos are lamenting what a sorry state Toronto is in for transit. London is far from perfect, especially compared to some other European cities, but it's still a generation or two ahead of Toronto. And that's not hard...
I never said travel in London was worse than Toronto. London has really good transit infrastructure. While Toronto does not have anywhere near the transit infrastructure similar to London many of its problems in transit operations and commuting within suburbs is inherent to many cities around the world. That is my point.
 
Perhaps some missed the memo?
What has gone wrong since the ‘golden age’ of Toronto transit
Stephen Wickens
Special to The Globe and Mail
Published Thursday, Mar. 16, 2017 2:15PM EDT

Toronto’s transit system was once such a wonder that, even into the 1980s, people came from around the world to study how it planned infrastructure projects, how it executed them and how it operated.

That so-called “golden age” also produced transit experts so revered, they got to travel the globe in return. For some, their views have been valued well past retirement age – though not so much in their hometown.

Three of them – Richard Soberman, Ed Levy and David Crowley – recently gathered for lunch and a gab. The Scarborough subway, which is to be voted on again March 28, was not the focus, but it came up often.

“We have to be careful; this idea there was a golden age is a bit of myth,” says Dr. Soberman, former chair of civil engineering at the University of Toronto and lead author of many seminal transportation reports dating to the early 1960s. “We did very good things – on time, on budget – but we made big politically driven errors back then, too. Building a subway [Spadina] on an expressway median was a huge one. Putting the Queen subway on Bloor has turned out to be a mistake.”

Related: Let’s see how well Toronto handles another transit disappointment

“Precisely,” says Mr. Levy, jumping in. Mr. Levy, a planner, engineer and author of Rapid Transit in Toronto, A Century of Plans, Projects, Politics and Paralysis, says that great cities that have been able to sustainably expand subways kept building from the middle out (and they didn’t tunnel in low-density areas).

By not doing Queen right after Yonge, “we missed a crucial starting point for network-building. We’ve never been able to get back to a logical order,” Mr. Levy says. “Call it the Queen line, relief line, whatever, the whole GTA has needed this piece of infrastructure for decades, but politicians keep wasting scarce capital on frills and vote buying.”

“Toronto’s biggest transit problem,” says Mr. Crowley, who specializes in data analysis, travel market research and demand forecasting, “is we’ve overloaded core parts of the subway. We’d basically done that on lower Yonge 30 years ago, when I was still at the TTC. We have to relearn the importance of downtown to the whole region, the whole country. We’re in danger of killing the golden goose.”

Noting that trains from Scarborough and North York are often full before crossing into the old city, Mr. Crowley says that, “data and demand patterns are telling us the stupidest thing we could do is make any of our lines longer [before putting another subway through the core].”

“Much as I like the Eglinton Crosstown idea, and it’s overdue, too,” Mr. Levy says, “I fear what it will do to Yonge-line crowding. Again, the sequence is so wrong.” [...continues in lurid detail...]
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...olden-age-of-toronto-transit/article34321708/

It is very easy to complain about the TTC and it's many issues but I think it is important to place these issues in context. Bus bunching, signal train issues, surly drivers, poor headway maintenance, excessive running times, etc. are common throughout North America and Europe. I lived in London recently in a suburb similar to Scarborough. The bus route I lived on which had frequent scheduled service was often subject to bus bunching and short turns with the next bus 10-15 min away leaving behind huge crowds. While the tube in London is very impressive for its size it's main goal is to bring access to the core and does nothing for intra suburb travel. Buses are slow as the streets are designed with an urbanism mindset. No A/C on any mode of public transport. One of the other bus routes I travelled in London often had to hold at time points similar to the annoying experiences I had at the TTC. It is important to understand while using the TTC can be a frustrating and miserable experience many of its problems are inherent throughout worldwide transit systems. It is a miracle that the TTC can offer such comprehensive service with the funding it is received.

Friday 18 September 2015 14.39 BST
Boris Johnson’s New Routemaster buses for London, described as a “cauldron on wheels”, will be fitted with opening windows to prevent passengers overheating – at a cost of £2m.

Transport for London confirmed on Friday that the buses – nicknamed “Roastmasters” for their stifling design – would be refitted with new windows on the top decks after passenger concerns.

There are 550 of the buses on London streets, at a cost of roughly £350,000 each, and a further 250 which are on order will also have the new windows.

“We’re pleased they’ve now been able to come up with an affordable and working design to install opening windows, which we anticipate will have been installed across our entire fleet by next summer,” TfL’s director of buses, Mike Weston, told the Evening Standard.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-london-to-be-refitted-with-windows-that-open
Fixed sooner than the Bloor-Danforth trains, which are still not fully fixed. Speaking of trains, and the Overground ones through Walthamstow:
Thousands of London Overground customers set for new trains
19 June 2015

Thousands of customers on London Overground routes in East and North East London will travel on new air-conditioned trains from 2018, after TfL today announced that a contract with a capital value of around £260m will be awarded to Bombardier Transportation to build a new fleet of trains.

The 45 new trains will operate on the Liverpool Street to Enfield Town, Cheshunt (via Seven Sisters) and Chingford routes, which became part of the TfL network in May, as well as on the routes between Barking and Gospel Oak and between Romford and Upminster.

New trains will transform service
The new trains will transform the service experienced by customers on these routes, and will have similar features to the fleet that serves other parts of the London Overground network, including walk-through carriages, air-conditioning and improved accessibility. TfL's 24 stations on the West Anglia routes are now, as with the rest of London Overground, staffed at all times and are undergoing an extensive programme of cleaning and other improvements to bring the service up to the high standards experienced elsewhere on the network. [...]
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...ondon-overground-customers-set-for-new-trains

And London still has to go some way to match cities on the Continent. The point remains, Toronto *IS* dragging her heals, badly.
 
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http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/01/sadiq-khan-axes-bojos-flawed-funky-looking-london-buses/
The new Routemasters are really unpopular
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...r-costing-tfl-millions-in-fares-a3313706.html
TFL buses r getting slower
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ks-confidence-in-londons-new-mayor-sadiq-khan
Also the TFL system is often subject to strikes something that can't happen in Toronto because it's illegal. Toronto has way more problems than London but u can't just ignore Londons problems. Overall though I do agree that on the point of transit infrastructure Toronto is severely lacking.
 
TTC made their routes slower by simply introducing artics on them. Now the 53E/F Steeles East Express slowly roll to the next express stop. They added time to the streetcars and now they do the same.
 
TTC made their routes slower by simply introducing artics on them. Now the 53E/F Steeles East Express slowly roll to the next express stop. They added time to the streetcars and now they do the same.
Dude I never said the TTC was better than the TFL only that some of its problems exist in other cities too.
 
In Defense of the TTC

https://medium.com/@human.encyclopedia.rick/in-defense-of-the-ttc-9a9d2141984d

.....

- Many Torontonians have mocked the subway network for being too small and having only 2.5 lines. Many also look to New York, Tokyo, and London’s subway systems with envy. Toronto, however, is not New York, Tokyo, or London; it has at most 1/6th the metropolitan population of those cities, and a smaller fraction of their densities. For a mid-size North American city, its subway network beats many larger major cities like Boston, Philadelphia, and LA. In addition, many cities larger than Toronto like Dallas don’t even have subway systems. The subway network is also larger than many cities elsewhere on earth, including global metropolises like Amsterdam and Rome. So while it’s okay to dream for a subway system that rivals New York, let’s not forget that the TTC’s subway system punches above its weight.

- Imagine barely missing the train and having to wait 20–30 minutes for the next train. That’s what people in other cities, even New York, have to deal with. A subway line is only as useful as the service provided on it. The TTC has ensured no line in the subway system has a frequency lower than 5 minutes at any time. New York, meanwhile, has sections where the train comes every 20 minutes outside of rush hour. DC and San Francisco have trains arriving every 8 minutes even during rush hour. Even in European cities like Frankfurt and Paris, service is up to twice as sparse as the TTC. And in 2018, after a lot of work completed during weekend closures, automated control will be implemented, enabling the TTC to run trains every 105 seconds, matching Vancouver as one of the most frequent metro systems in the world.

- Toronto also has a very robust bus and streetcar network. Like most bus networks, it covers all areas of Toronto. But Toronto is unique in the fact that every inch of the city from Scarborough to Etobicoke is within a 20 minute walk to one of 52 frequent bus, streetcar, or subway route that comes every 10 minutes or less, even at midnight. Other cities can’t even come close to this service. LA has huge swaths of the city that don’t have access to reliable and frequent bus service. Minneapolis, a similar-sized city to Toronto, only has five routes that all converge downtown. No other city comes close to the level of bus/streetcar service Toronto, New York, Chicago, Montreal, and Vancouver have. The TTC often gets derided for its delays, but in actuality, it’s among the most reliable systems in the world and has relatively few delays compared to other transit agencies.

.....




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So, a few things...

1) That map is not correct. 1 of those lines do not exist. 1 of those lines is under construction. 1 of those extensions is under construction, and 1 of those extensions does not exist. Also, you are missing a line.

The MBTA subways, including the Green Line is 126 km long
The Toronto Subway system is 68km
The Toronto streetcar system is 83km
If you add them together, you get 151km.
The Green line is considered RT, whereas the Streetcars are not.
So, Boston's system is better, and is regarded as a better system.

That's correct. TTC is the best transit system in Canada follow by Montreal. Vancouver is okay.

The majority 95% of the population lives within a reasonable walk to a bust stop and within 15 min. walk for overnight service. Go to Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa and talk overnight service and you'll know it doesn't really exist except a couple busy corridor. Calgary might have a good LRT system but they bus supporting network is garbage. It rarely comes and goes in loops to service people. Except Montreal, no other Canadian cities have a 10 minute frequent network. Vancouver's frequent network is 15 min. TTC's frequent network is very very very good servicing from start of service to 1 am. Montreal only does 6am-9pm and half of the 10-min. routes are offer in one direction only. TTC is developing a good limited stop (express) network while many North American cities are way behind.

It is because the TTC is a very good system that's underfunded that leads to overcapacity and all the delays that occur. If the system wasn't that worn out with frequent train services matching Asian cities, there wouldn't be as many mechanical issues.

The Toronto Subway system is 68km
The Montreal Metro is 69km
The Skytrain is 79km

Toronto covers less area. It is great that the hours are longer, but you cannot get nearly as far with the TTC as you can with the others. Even when the extensions open to Vaughan and STC, it will still be shorter than the Skytrain, and they will still be adding another 13km in the next 10-15 years.

It is time Torontians accept they have a substandard system and that they demand better from the fly by night politicians.
 
So, a few things...

1) That map is not correct. 1 of those lines do not exist. 1 of those lines is under construction. 1 of those extensions is under construction, and 1 of those extensions does not exist. Also, you are missing a line.
The guy who made the map says that all of this will be built by 2021 the SSE will only be finished during the mid to late 2020s,
By 2031 though it would be accurate as Line 5 is under construction scheduled to open late 2021, the TYSSE opens end of this year, Finch West starts construction this year scheduled to open late 2021, and the SSE will be built simply because almost every goddamn politician has bet their careers on this and it would be political suicided to kill it. I personally disagree with this extension but no point fighting whats going to happen. This is like the most realistic map of the future TTC rapid transit network as every other project is unfunded.
 
The guy who made the map says that all of this will be built by 2021 the SSE will only be finished during the mid to late 2020s,
By 2031 though it would be accurate as Line 5 is under construction scheduled to open late 2021, the TYSSE opens end of this year, Finch West starts construction this year scheduled to open late 2021, and the SSE will be built simply because almost every goddamn politician has bet their careers on this and it would be political suicided to kill it. I personally disagree with this extension but no point fighting whats going to happen. This is like the most realistic map of the future TTC rapid transit network as every other project is unfunded.

I am not arguing about what should be done or not. I am stating that they do not exist. There are planned and proposed systems in Boston that are not on their lines, why the hell would you put those on a TTC map and circulate it as the system map.
 
I am not arguing about what should be done or not. I am stating that they do not exist. There are planned and proposed systems in Boston that are not on their lines, why the hell would you put those on a TTC map and circulate it as the system map.
the guy doesnt mention in his urbantoronto post but if you read the blog post he linked he states the map is Toronto’s Rapid Transit Network in 2021 Following Completion of All Lines Currently Under Construction. Obviously it is more like 2031 rather than 2021 due to delays and what not.
 
the guy doesnt mention in his urbantoronto post but if you read the blog post he linked he states the map is Toronto’s Rapid Transit Network in 2021 Following Completion of All Lines Currently Under Construction. Obviously it is more like 2031 rather than 2021 due to delays and what not.

And when 2031 gets here, will any of that actually be built beyond what currently is under construction? Remember, in the next few years, we have a provincial election.
 
And when 2031 gets here, will any of that actually be built beyond what currently is under construction? Remember, in the next few years, we have a provincial election.
most of the above listed are either in construction or will start construction before the next provincial election making it harder to cancel. Finch West starts this year and the SSE is like unkillable at this point. No party is going to attempt to kill it. However, I fear that nothing else will be built. I remember being so excited looking at the Transit City plans a decade ago and have become extremely pessimistic about any proposed transit expansion plan that is not fully funded.
 
most of the above listed are either in construction or will start construction before the next provincial election making it harder to cancel. Finch West starts this year and the SSE is like unkillable at this point. No party is going to attempt to kill it. However, I fear that nothing else will be built. I remember being so excited looking at the Transit City plans a decade ago and have become extremely pessimistic about any proposed transit expansion plan that is not fully funded.

Didn't they bury a tunnel for something called the Eglinton Subway? Until it opens, it could still be canned.
 
Didn't they bury a tunnel for something called the Eglinton Subway? Until it opens, it could still be canned.
Yeah but isnt the entire 10 km tunnel dug by now the previous Eglinton Subway only had a small portion dug when it was cancelled. There is no way anyone would cancel this after like 6 years of construction. No one has really opposed this line.
 
That's correct. TTC is the best transit system in Canada follow by Montreal. Vancouver is okay.

The majority 95% of the population lives within a reasonable walk to a bust stop and within 15 min. walk for overnight service. Go to Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa and talk overnight service and you'll know it doesn't really exist except a couple busy corridor. Calgary might have a good LRT system but they bus supporting network is garbage. It rarely comes and goes in loops to service people. Except Montreal, no other Canadian cities have a 10 minute frequent network. Vancouver's frequent network is 15 min. TTC's frequent network is very very very good servicing from start of service to 1 am. Montreal only does 6am-9pm and half of the 10-min. routes are offer in one direction only. TTC is developing a good limited stop (express) network while many North American cities are way behind.

It is because the TTC is a very good system that's underfunded that leads to overcapacity and all the delays that occur. If the system wasn't that worn out with frequent train services matching Asian cities, there wouldn't be as many mechanical issues.

I created this map recently showing the TTC's frequent service network, which they define as ten minutes or better between 6 am to 1:30 am Monday to Saturday, and 8 am to 1:30 am on Sundays. It's amazing how extensive it is, especially knowing that all of this runs 7 days a week until 1:30 am. Imagine what this could become if the TTC had more funding.

Picture1.png


I have more TTC maps at this link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QojQiXHRvqouOrjN1p3jGkK-jsc&usp=sharing
 

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I created this map recently showing the TTC's frequent service network, which they define as ten minutes or better between 6 am to 1:30 am Monday to Saturday, and 8 am to 1:30 am on Sundays. It's amazing how extensive it is, especially knowing that all of this runs 7 days a week until 1:30 am. Imagine what this could become if the TTC had more funding.

View attachment 102491

I have more TTC maps at this link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QojQiXHRvqouOrjN1p3jGkK-jsc&usp=sharing
I always found it funny that the TTC included the 69 Warden South as a frequent service. While on paper its branches combined provide a 10 minute service each branch is basically a different service. One branch operates clockwise and the other one counter-clockwise.
 

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