TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[Northern Light]

Out of curiosity, can anyone explain why politicians in this city are so ecstatic that the federal budget includes $20 billion over 10 years for public transit for the entire country? Is it just me or does that seem like peanuts and it's the equivalent of nothing for the TTC, since they would get roughly $400-$500 million.

I certainly can't explain ecstasy, for my own, less than flattering thoughts on this budget, see the Justin Trudeau's Canada thread...... (but I digress)

However, I would suggest the numbers are likely much better than what you think.

I expect the transit money will be awarded in proportion to ridership, or fairly close to that.

That will give the TTC a much higher number, perhaps in the range of 4 billion? (not looking up the numbers right now)

 

[amnesiajune]

And frankly, $1B into roadways (like Gardiner) would free up $1B that the city could invest elsewhere.

(eyes rolling)

The city is spending around $350 million no matter what it decides to do, and then it can spend another $200-300 million to keep most of the Gardiner East instead of tearing it down east of Jarvis. The extra cost of operating and maintaining the Gardiner is an average of $5 million per year (plus inflation). There's no "billion dollars" that can be freed up for anything.

And for whoever obsesses over "evidence-based" decisions, the Gardiner East would move roughly the same number of people as the Crosstown LRT (~160,000 per day) for 5% of the capital cost and 6% of the operating & maintenance cost.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

(eyes rolling)
And for whoever obsesses over "evidence-based" decisions, the Gardiner East would move roughly the same number of people as the Crosstown LRT (~160,000 per day) for 5% of the capital cost and 6% of the operating & maintenance cost.

Except it isn't like removing the Gardiner East will reduce that figure to zero, and if you want to talk about capital cost, you'd have to include the initital building cost of that section of the Gardiner and apply a suitable rate of inflation plus the current round of revitalization for an apples to apples comparison (not that you can really compare expressways to mass transit, but that's another issue).

AoD

 

[amnesiajune]

If you want to talk about capital cost, you'd have to include the initital building cost of that section of the Gardiner

That's irrelevant now. It's been spent. The city can't go back and reclaim that money - they have the choice between spending $350 million on an eight-lane avenue or $600 million on a six-lane avenue and four-lane elevated freeway.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

That's irrelevant now. It's been spent. The city can't go back and reclaim that money - they have the choice between spending $350 million on an eight-lane avenue or $600 million on a six-lane avenue and four-lane elevated freeway.

Nope, if you want to drag out comparison of capital cost to ECLRT, you better do it all - it isn't like the Gardiner magically appeared in the city gratis. Apples to apples. Plus that's not the more "fatal" aspect of the argument - it is the implication that the alternative does not allow for traffic.

AoD

 

[micheal_can]

I would be great if the Federal and Provincial governments had yearly budgets foor transit that the money went to the transit authority not to deal with operating costs, but to deal with the infrastructure that will improve transit for all.
Whether is is new buses, subway/streetcar/LRT cars, extending or adding lines, or overall improving the service; by having it go to where the transit authority feels will best serve the population, it would take the construction process out of the politicians hands.

Right now, the people who work and run the TTC could make better plans than the politicians who don't take transit in the first place.

 

[M II A II R II K]

While autonomous vehicles are years away Toronto’s transit agency wants to be a leader in their use.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/03/22/ttc-report-looks-at-impact-of-driverless-buses.html

 

[crs1026]

The table showing the outlay of the PTIF funding by province is here http://www.infrastructure.gc.ca/plan/ptic-fitc-table-tableau-eng.html

(Many thanks to another poster for pointing me to this)

I bet if you set this next to a table showing where Ottawa's revenue comes from, it would not be all that different.

In other words.....it's not only less than a huge amount for Ontario (set against our needs), but it's Ontario's own money, just fed back to us.

We really need to get serious about those local "revenue tools".

- Paul

 

[jje1000]

While autonomous vehicles are years away Toronto’s transit agency wants to be a leader in their use.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/03/22/ttc-report-looks-at-impact-of-driverless-buses.html

Would be interesting if the TTC were to partner with, say Waterloo and Blackberry in exploring this concept.

 

[JoEddie7677]

The TTC should be careful with using experimental technology. Just look at the RT technology, hybrid buses breaking down too often, the previously used unreliable Ikarus articulated bus. Given the TTC's poor track record of using not fully tried out new technology they should be very cautious before trying out any new technology.

 

[M II A II R II K]

And the unions will insist that a driver has to be on board for the sake of doing so for their workers to get paid, with their obligatory bowl of soup since they have nothing else to do.

 

[rbt]

And the unions will insist that a driver has to be on board for the sake of doing so for their workers to get paid, with their obligatory bowl of soup since they have nothing else to do.

I expect the TTCs insurance company would insist on a human driver for a long time too.

The lawsuit from a bus running at full speed into a crowd at a subway station (due to a glitch) would not be a tiny one. Even a very low risk of a huge bill will cause them to be in favour of paying drivers for a while. I'd expect a transition period on the order of a decade or 2.

Buses, by law, aren't allowed to trust train crossing signals to be functional and those have a pretty low failure rate.

 

[Amare]

However, I would suggest the numbers are likely much better than what you think.

I expect the transit money will be awarded in proportion to ridership, or fairly close to that.

That will give the TTC a much higher number, perhaps in the range of 4 billion? (not looking up the numbers right now)

Except that in reality, the numbers are actually worse than what I initially thought. It's $20 billion over 11 years, so less than $2 Billion/Year spread across Canada. So the TTC would likely see $400-$500 million/year even if the funding is based on ridership.

 

[smallspy]

Buses, by law, aren't allowed to trust train crossing signals to be functional and those have a pretty low failure rate.

Try to find that in the HTA - you won't. And it's not even a bylaw either, at least not in the City of Toronto.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[amnesiajune]

Try to find that in the HTA - you won't.

Sort of. Section 174 requires school buses to stop at all railway crossings, and requires any public bus to stop at all railway crossings that don't have lights and gates. That law dates back to a TTC accident in the 1970s (which is still the deadliest accident in TTC history).