News   Dec 20, 2024
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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

As far as I know, all the trains coming out of the European plants are on time... Blackpool, Berlin and Gold Coast were all delivered on time.

The TTC Outlook order is certainly an anomaly. Even all the other products coming out of TB are on time... it's literally just Toronto's Outlook that is all messed up.
 
As far as I know, all the trains coming out of the European plants are on time... Blackpool, Berlin and Gold Coast were all delivered on time.

The TTC Outlook order is certainly an anomaly. Even all the other products coming out of TB are on time... it's literally just Toronto's Outlook that is all messed up.

The Flexity Freedom and Outlook are very similar products. The problems plaguing the Outlook productions may very well negatively impact our Freedoms.

Will parts of Freedom production also be outsourced to Mexico? That's where most of the Outlook's problems have stemmed from.
 
The problems plaguing the Outlook productions may very well negatively impact our Freedoms.

Don't worry, the Charter will protect our freedoms!
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Time to give up on the ghost BBD and get a new supplier

BBD has issues in Europe with free trains being given away for the delays and problems.

With KW cars being official delay and no TTC cars on the radar, time to cut the cord and get another supplier.
Bombardier LRT vehicles delayed
 
Lets put it this way. Between Metrolinx order, TTC order plus addition order, that 400 give or take cars to be built by 2021, not including Edmonton order. Forgot the number of cars that were plan for the SRT conversion that is now scrap and could go to the 2 Eglinton expansion.

If you removed Mississauga order and delay Hamilton order, you are still over 300 cars. Mississauga needs to be a P3 tender. If not, then it has to be added back in and this line will not go into service in 2022 as plan.

Math said you need to build 75 cars a year to meet full delivery for 300+ cars by 2021. If you do the math for all the order to be completed by 2022, you are over 80 cars a year.

This year, TTC was to have 56 cars and don't see that. If BBD did 4 cars a month as claim, that 36 cars this year and 48 per year. If they did 1 a week, that 50-52 if no holidays allow for.

Doing 48 cars a year is a far cry of the 75-80 that is needed. Based on 48 cars a year, the last car will not be built until late 2024 or early 2025, putting Hamilton and Edmonton years late getting cars for their system.

It also means, the City of Toronto has no hope of seeing the 2 Eglinton expansion happening until late 2025-28 depending on the number of cars needed for those extension, not the plan 2022 time frame.

Will Finch have cars for 2021 to start operation or be delay??

It makes some different to TTC as to when the Crosstown Line open since they still will continue to run buses like they do today, but will the buses last that long as well having to be rebuilt like the TTC current Streetcar Fleet? Is Metrolinx going to cover the extra cost keeping buses on the road until the Crosstown Line comes on line since its their project??

TTC is planning retiring a large number of buses when it does and prefer not to rebuild or buy buses to cover the delay. It also prevents TTC from beefing up service as plan as well.

Based on the 56 cars this year for TTC, looks like 53 with what TTC has in service and getting 36 cars.
 
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I've been thinking that metrolinx should replace the vehicles in Mississauga with vehicles that have lithium-ion batteries. That would give them the ability to build through Brampton without overhead wires. They could open the line with the BBD vehicles if they arrive and then shift them to eglinton or finch when the battery vehicles arrive from another supplier. This fixes Brampton, removes the risk that some of the lines won't open because of late deliveries from BBD and introduces the battery technology which will help expansion in some other locations where nimbys run rampant. Along with that order do the 60 for Toronto with an option for up to 200 extra based on BBDs ability to supply the current order they don't need to be battery powered although some locations in Toronto might benefit from that technology as well. We will know relatively soon whether it might be needed due to the out we have with failures per km. Along with many other outs with the current lack of deliveries.
 
Man what a disaster this is becoming... These delays are moving beyond annoying to actually serious. At this rate, you gotta wonder if the TTC will be able to run the streetcar network at all. We've already seen one route cancelled and effectively cancelled service on two more (508 entirely, 502 and 503 now bus routes rather than streetcar routes) - how long until more routes are converted to buses or cancelled outright because of decaying streetcars? And for that matter, as per @drum118's post just now, what happens when the TTC retires some of their older buses? Do we start seeing service reductions downtown or on suburban routes? Bombardier is really screwing with transit in this city at a time when Council and people living in the city are actually wanting to use the TTC. I sincerely hope this lawsuit is able to win some real damages because man, what a disaster...
 
Are there any systems that the ttc could source old vehicles from? Boston took our vehicles, can we get some back?
Sorry no.

El Paso are rebuilding their PCC which are in real poor shape from the ground up.

Wouldn't touch Boston Cars with a 10 foot pole.

Boston is finally getting new cars, which leaves Phil since they are then next one and have been looking at TTC news cars as replacement.

I've been thinking that metrolinx should replace the vehicles in Mississauga with vehicles that have lithium-ion batteries. That would give them the ability to build through Brampton without overhead wires. They could open the line with the BBD vehicles if they arrive and then shift them to eglinton or finch when the battery vehicles arrive from another supplier. This fixes Brampton, removes the risk that some of the lines won't open because of late deliveries from BBD and introduces the battery technology which will help expansion in some other locations where nimbys run rampant. Along with that order do the 60 for Toronto with an option for up to 200 extra based on BBDs ability to supply the current order they don't need to be battery powered although some locations in Toronto might benefit from that technology as well. We will know relatively soon whether it might be needed due to the out we have with failures per km. Along with many other outs with the current lack of deliveries.

Makes no difference if the cars are wire or lithium-ion batteries as Brampton doesn't want the tracks or the LRT there in the first place at this time.

Next order for replacement of the new cars will be 100% lithium-ion batteries or something like it, with all overhead remove.

Based on current issues with BBD and needing about 30 cars, they should be part of an P3 for building the line and will show up as require, unless BBD was part of the bid team. I would think any P3 team bidding on the contractor will look at other supplier for the cars other than BBD.

NOTE: Given its been about 6 months that 4402 went back to be rebuilt, its taking longer to do the work than a new car to the point one would say its been scrap and being replace by a new one.

Will this happen to 4401 when it gets ship or will we not see it until 2017??
 
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All of this Bombardier news makes me really, really glad that Ottawa chose to go with in-house assembly of Alstrom vehicles (which by the way are on schedule and being assembled at the MSF in Ottawa right now). At least one LRT project in Ontario isn't going to be screwed over timeline-wise due to vehicle manufacturing issues.
 
It's time for ML to place a small add-on order to an in-progress order with another manufacturer somewhere - to protect KW startup and to give Bombardier the needed wake up call.

Assuming the KW line is designed to a more conventional spec than TTC, there must be a vehicle that will fit, and it's not too late to adjust clearances or whatever to make them fit.

The KW fleet won't be very large so no big deal if it ends up non-standard. The Ottawa product would be a promising choice as it would let KW and Ottawa team up on replacement parts, technical expertise, etc so the long term fleet cost of the non-Flexity fleet is improved.

Bombardier is not in the drivers' seat given the damages TTC must be entitled to, so if the ML-Bombardier order is pared back, so be it..

It continues to amaze me that Thunder Bay can perform adequately on TR's and bilevels but completely fail on Flexities. The difference has to be in the supply chain. If Mexico is the problem, one wonders just how much money it would cost Bombardier to pull its business out of Sagahun. There were likely government incentives to locate there that might have to be paid back, plus Bombardier's investment.

- Paul
 
All of this Bombardier news makes me really, really glad that Ottawa chose to go with in-house assembly of Alstrom vehicles (which by the way are on schedule and being assembled at the MSF in Ottawa right now). At least one LRT project in Ontario isn't going to be screwed over timeline-wise due to vehicle manufacturing issues.
The big issue for Bombardier doesn't seem to be the work being done in Thunder Bay, it's the quality of the parts coming into that assembly facility.

So Alstrom would have the same issues, if the plant where they are making the materials to be assembled in Ottawa has the same issues as the Bombardier plants outside of Ontario supplying the Thunder Bay plant.
 

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