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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

crs1026

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The welds in the bodies of the earliest-built cars did not achieve full penetration of the material. Strength-wise, they are more than adequate and safe, but it does allow for the potential for the joint to fatigue over time and eventually fail. And to be fair to the workers, this is generally type of thing that only gets discovered by fairly advanced processes, not by looking at it closely with a skilled eye.
The damning thing in this for Bombardier is that the "fairly advanced processes" are supposed to be methodically and diligently applied in qc'ing the fabrication. How production reached 60+ cars before this became an issue just astounds me. The techniques may be complex, but the principle of QC'ing welds thoroughly is Quality Management 101 material.

- Paul
 

drum118

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If the Jail Birds are to be number 4570-4604, that will be a huge misleading gap between what we have until Thunder Bay catch up to 4569. This means, TB only has 61 more cars to do, while Kingston is doing 34 by Nov 2019.

Kingston should be shipping a car about every 10-11 days while TB is doing it every 6 days
 

smallspy

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^ Well the CR4000s don't do what the Toronto Flexities do in terms of stuttering and grabbing during hard braking. I look forward to comparing the ride with the regional LRTs using Flexities.
The CR4000s also use fully rotating bogies with a quasi-Jacobs bogie for the articulation. They are much more akin to the ALRVs than to the Flexities in terms of their dynamics and interface with the track.

The damning thing in this for Bombardier is that the "fairly advanced processes" are supposed to be methodically and diligently applied in qc'ing the fabrication. How production reached 60+ cars before this became an issue just astounds me. The techniques may be complex, but the principle of QC'ing welds thoroughly is Quality Management 101 material.

- Paul
No doubt. It makes one wonder why they simply assumed that the first cars through were fine, and why it appears that they have not been used to assure the processes and training in place were adequate for the whole project.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 

KevinT

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No doubt. It makes one wonder why they simply assumed that the first cars through were fine, and why it appears that they have not been used to assure the processes and training in place were adequate for the whole project.
Maybe they had the same trouble finding/training/keeping qualified QA inspectors at the Sahagun plant as they did for welders.
 

nfitz

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If the Jail Birds are to be number 4570-4604, that will be a huge misleading gap between what we have until Thunder Bay catch up to 4569. This means, TB only has 61 more cars to do, while Kingston is doing 34 by Nov 2019.
If car 4604 is coming from Kingston - that would be the 205th car.

So have they decided to not modify 4401 as part of the initial 204 car order?

Or have they added additional vehicles for compensation?
 

drum118

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If car 4604 is coming from Kingston - that would be the 205th car.

So have they decided to not modify 4401 as part of the initial 204 car order?

Or have they added additional vehicles for compensation?
In a rush and 4604 should be 4603, but you never know what that last number will be until 2019. TTC should be getting an extra 15 cars to cover BBD mess.

4401 will be rebuilt as a production car and could be here by June 2019.
 

drum118

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The CR4000s also use fully rotating bogies with a quasi-Jacobs bogie for the articulation. They are much more akin to the ALRVs than to the Flexities in terms of their dynamics and interface with the track.



No doubt. It makes one wonder why they simply assumed that the first cars through were fine, and why it appears that they have not been used to assure the processes and training in place were adequate for the whole project.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
Why wasn't x-ray testing done on the welds in the beginning, as it would highlighted then, not now, when issues first surface for joining sections?? There are other test that can be done before x-ray to determined if the welds are good or not. Seen too many welds that look good on the surface, only to find no penetration (fusion) or impurity in the weld.
 

Steve X

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In a rush and 4604 should be 4603, but you never know what that last number will be until 2019. TTC should be getting an extra 15 cars to cover BBD mess.

4401 will be rebuilt as a production car and could be here by June 2019.
You keep saying that like compensation would come in the form of new cars. Yet there is no concrete prove that will happen.

What if the TTC doesn't order additional cars. What if TTC withheld the last payments and BBD waives it instead of keeping the workforce around. More cars means BBD would option for more parts through their supplier and more warranty. Without the 60 car option from the TTC, it'll be cheaper for BBD to just give the last few cars away than to build more for free. I really don't see how TTC would end up with more cars than they order.
 

nfitz

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You keep saying that like compensation would come in the form of new cars. Yet there is no concrete prove that will happen.
There's no concrete proof, but the last public vote on the issue that I know of, the TTC board did direct staff to take the compensation as new cars.
 

drum118

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You keep saying that like compensation would come in the form of new cars. Yet there is no concrete prove that will happen.

What if the TTC doesn't order additional cars. What if TTC withheld the last payments and BBD waives it instead of keeping the workforce around. More cars means BBD would option for more parts through their supplier and more warranty. Without the 60 car option from the TTC, it'll be cheaper for BBD to just give the last few cars away than to build more for free. I really don't see how TTC would end up with more cars than they order.
It has been assume that TTC will option for extra cars like they have on buses and other things in place of cash where the supplier has fail to live up to the contract.

We know TTC want more cars and getting extra cars from BBD in place of payment is one way to go, since we have Ford saying Ontario is open for business and TB has been single source for decades.

The thought of going elsewhere for more cars was deferred to 2019 to see how well BBD up hold their last promises to have all cars here in 2019, as well meeting this year schedule. At the same time, what is the best option for TTC to recovery the damages and extra cost keeping a fleet on the road longer than plan for?? Does this mean getting cars from BBD or take legal action to get money instead??

Until there is a new commission BOD in place come 2019 as well what the Mayor want to do, we have no idea what will take place at the end of the day at this time.

I did say TTC should get, but that is an open end statement. I am on record for going elsewhere for more cars and getting funds from BBD and still stand on that statement.
 

rbt

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What if the TTC doesn't order additional cars.
That's easy to answer. Bus service on 1 or more routes with tracks between ~2020 through 2024 (if they order immediately from someone else; otherwise 2024 gets later).
 

nfitz

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That's easy to answer. Bus service on 1 or more routes with tracks between ~2020 through 2024 (if they order immediately from someone else; otherwise 2024 gets later).
More likely 2027 if they keep the very optimistic schedule! The schedule in that June 2018 report was based on a Q3 2018 start on tendering for 100 more vehicles. Then an RFP in Q3 2020, award in Q4 2020, prototype delivered in Q2 2020, and final delivery didn't start until Q2 2024 - continuing for 2 years of deliveries. Which seems highly optimistic!

For comparison, the current project started back in April 2006, An RFP in 2007, with the award to Bombardier in 2009, first prototype in September 2012, deliveries starting in May 2014, and with the 100th car arriving in September 2018.

If the new streetcars follow similarly, then car 100 wouldn't arrive until 2031!

Meanwhile TTC estimates they'll need over 64 streetcars by 2023, and over 304 cars in 2027.

Which means if they go for just 100 more in a new tender, instead of first getting the 60 from Bombardier asap, and then 100 more ... then they'll be running buses every year in the future!
 
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drum118

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More likely 2027 if they keep the very optimistic schedule! The schedule in that June 2018 report was based on a Q3 2018 start on tendering for 100 more vehicles. Then an RFP in Q3 2020, award in Q4 2020, prototype delivered in Q2 2020, and final delivery didn't start until Q2 2024 - continuing for 2 years of deliveries. Which seems highly optimistic!

For comparison, the current project started back in April 2006, An RFP in 2007, with the award to Bombardier in 2009, first prototype in September 2012, deliveries starting in May 2014, and with the 100th car arriving in September 2018.

If the new streetcars follow similarly, then car 100 wouldn't arrive until 2031!

Meanwhile TTC estimates they'll need over 64 streetcars by 2023, and over 304 cars in 2027.

Which means if they go for just 100 more in a new tender, instead of first getting the 60 from Bombardier asap, and then 100 more ... then they'll be running buses every year in the future!
I don't see the same thing happening on an order not going to BBD as note. Based on what I know, we will see a prototype car 18 - 24 month once a contract is awarded and close to 18 months by a couple supplier.

One thing that has been shown with the current order, it should have been split as 2 contract and this has been stated by a number of professorial in field of streetcar buying.

The thing hold TTC from going to market sooner than later is the city and TTC budget. If TTC could get funding kicking in 2020, TTC could go to market in 2019 Q2-Q3 and awarding a contract Q1 in 2020 or sooner. This would see the first prototype showing up early 2022 and production starting by Q2-Q3. TTC could have the extra 60 cars by 2024 or early 25, with the balance by 2027 or sooner, based on TTC timetable.
 

smallspy

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Based on what I know, we will see a prototype car 18 - 24 month once a contract is awarded and close to 18 months by a couple supplier.
You may want to check on what you know then, Drum. There are very, very few parallels to this order. The one that comes closest to mind is the Helsinki order that resulted in them getting the now Skoda (formerly Transtech) Artic trams. That took them over 30 months from the time of signing of the contract to the delivery of the first of two test vehicles. And then another 24+ months to deliver the first production vehicle. And by the way, those first two test vehicles were never accepted by the Helsinki transit agency and were returned to Transtech.

So yeah, 18 months is not feasible for a bespoke vehicle. And 24 months isn't very likely, either.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
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