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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

Richard White

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When the cars are being held together by Duct Tape and the electronics are so outdated they are not worth saving. The state of the ALRVs and CLRVs were so bad that it was likely a good business decision not to waste resources trying to fix them.

Just because you can fix something it does not always make sense especially when they will only be on the road for another year.
 

drum118

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When the cars are being held together by Duct Tape and the electronics are so outdated they are not worth saving. The state of the ALRVs and CLRVs were so bad that it was likely a good business decision not to waste resources trying to fix them.

Just because you can fix something it does not always make sense especially when they will only be on the road for another year.
What would you do to offer service to the current ridership at the same quality headway??
 

nfitz

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The state of the ALRVs and CLRVs were so bad that it was likely a good business decision not to waste resources trying to fix them.
Certainly not worth wasting any more money on. The $$$ they paid on the CLRVs seems to have paid off. But the $26 million spent on the ALRVs to keep ... what ... at most 5 cars in service at once? With the add-on Flexities priced at $3.6 million each (let's call it $4 million with escalation, etc.) they could have bought 8 Flexities instead of working on those 20-odd ALRVs.

Still, no point looking back. TTC still hasn't sorted out orders to fill the gap between the 204 cars they've originally ordered, and the 260+ they actually need to provide the current service, let alone the 350 they'll need in a few years time.

What would you do to offer service to the current ridership at the same quality headway??
If only it was the same quality headway! 504 service on Roncesvalles is about half of what it was back in 2014, before they started the 514 thing and bustitution.

Though the answer is clear. You use buses instead. The ALRV work only got them no more than 5 ALRVs in service most days. 1 or 2 some days. Buying 10 additional buses would have been far cheaper! And at the end of the day, you can use the buses somewhere else!
 

Richard White

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What would you do to offer service to the current ridership at the same quality headway??

Not use the legacy fleet. IIRC they had issues with the pneumatic systems a couple years ago in the cold whereas buses and flexities did not.

The number of legacy cars is dwindling and their reliability is questionable. Keeping them around will not help keep the status quo.. it will cause more problems when cars are yanked from service for mechanical or other issues.
 

drum118

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Not use the legacy fleet. IIRC they had issues with the pneumatic systems a couple years ago in the cold whereas buses and flexities did not.

The number of legacy cars is dwindling and their reliability is questionable. Keeping them around will not help keep the status quo.. it will cause more problems when cars are yanked from service for mechanical or other issues.
If you yank all the existing fleet off the road now or a year ago, what do you expect TTC to use to off set that lost?? I do agree it money being wasted, but what choice does TTC have not doing it???
 

nfitz

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If you yank all the existing fleet off the road now or a year ago, what do you expect TTC to use to off set that lost?? I do agree it money being wasted, but what choice does TTC have not doing it???
This is the ALRV program. The CLRV program was more successful.

With only 4 ALRVs in service today on 501, compared to 39 CLRVs on 501 (right now at least) I'm struggling to see what would have been the downside if they'd simply retired all the ALRVs already, and purchased 10 buses instead for about 1/3 of the price.
 

drum118

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This is the ALRV program. The CLRV program was more successful.

With only 4 ALRVs in service today on 501, compared to 39 CLRVs on 501 (right now at least) I'm struggling to see what would have been the downside if they'd simply retired all the ALRVs already, and purchased 10 buses instead for about 1/3 of the price.
I thought it was a mistake to rebuilt the ALRV's due to their problem when first announced and should have been retire by 2016, as the new cars show up in place of 2014-15. It would have forced TTC to hang onto a few of the scrap CLRV's longer than they did.

With only 2-4 seeing service these days, best to scrap them this year, than 2020. Once the cold weather is here, will not see them and what good are they sitting in the yard?? Having 2-4 in service doesn't really help the line or hurt it if they aren't there in the first place.

Getting more cars order needs to be one of the top items that the new board needs to deal with on day one. Who gets them is a different story. As it stands now from what I know, Thunder Bay books will be empty by the end of 2019 for orders with a few vehicles being finish Q1. Between now and 2020, anything can happen for orders.

Looking at a fair number of CLRV's the past few days, they are in real poor shape including repainted ones.

As for getting an extra 10 buses, you also need an extra 30 driver so there is no overtime like 113 trying to stop these days.
 

nfitz

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With only 2-4 seeing service these days, best to scrap them this year, than 2020. Once the cold weather is here, will not see them and what good are they sitting in the yard?? Having 2-4 in service doesn't really help the line or hurt it if they aren't there in the first place.
They already said they'd all be gone by end of 2019. But will the cold weather really be a big issue? I thought it was the electronics that were the big issue not the air lines - which did get overhauled.

Getting more cars order needs to be one of the top items that the new board needs to deal with on day one.
Yes. And best give the 60-cars to Bombardier, who can easily have them all delivered by 2022. Rather than car 1 arriving in 2024 if they meet an exceedingly optimistic schedule.

And then look at the costs. The Bombardier cars were about $5 million each, with the next lowest bidder being about $7.5 million. But the add-on cars from Bombardier are only $3.4 million. Surely going with any other bidder is going to double (or more) the costs.
 

smallspy

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They already said they'd all be gone by end of 2019. But will the cold weather really be a big issue? I thought it was the electronics that were the big issue not the air lines - which did get overhauled.

The air system continues to be a problem in cold weather, even despite the work done on the cars. The control systems are problematic year-round.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 

thettctransitfanatic

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Certainly not worth wasting any more money on. The $$$ they paid on the CLRVs seems to have paid off. But the $26 million spent on the ALRVs to keep ... what ... at most 5 cars in service at once? With the add-on Flexities priced at $3.6 million each (let's call it $4 million with escalation, etc.) they could have bought 8 Flexities instead of working on those 20-odd ALRVs.

Still, no point looking back. TTC still hasn't sorted out orders to fill the gap between the 204 cars they've originally ordered, and the 260+ they actually need to provide the current service, let alone the 350 they'll need in a few years time.

If only it was the same quality headway! 504 service on Roncesvalles is about half of what it was back in 2014, before they started the 514 thing and bustitution.

Though the answer is clear. You use buses instead. The ALRV work only got them no more than 5 ALRVs in service most days. 1 or 2 some days. Buying 10 additional buses would have been far cheaper! And at the end of the day, you can use the buses somewhere else!

The ALRV fleet rebuild, Brad Ross and TTC even admitted was not really a good idea, but had to be done because of the ridership. The only ALRVs that still get into service are 4204, 4217, 4221, 4229, 4236 and 4249. Today, only 4204, 4217, 4221, 4229 and 4236 got out. Aren't the ALRVs supposed to be gone by January, however ?
 

thettctransitfanatic

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In other news: Brad Ross tweeted that they’re finally gonna deploy flexities on Queen during the weekday.

Well, I and most people on this thread knew that the deployment of Flexities on 501 was gonna eventually happen, but now that Flexities are being deployed on 501 on weekdays and Saturdays, it's great to here, even if it's just 3 Flexities, because 501 needs extra capacity.
 
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