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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

So from the sounds of it Bombardier disagrees with the August 2015 date...it will be interesting to see what the outcome of this is...could we be looking at a cancelled streetcar order? Could we be looking at Bombardier not being able to bid? Could this just be a way of cancelling the 60 extra car order? Is the TTC somehow at fault for change orders and lack of communication?

Fun...
 
georgevicbell said:
So from the sounds of it Bombardier disagrees with the August 2015 date...it will be interesting to see what the outcome of this is...could we be looking at a cancelled streetcar order? Could we be looking at Bombardier not being able to bid? Could this just be a way of cancelling the 60 extra car order? Is the TTC somehow at fault for change orders and lack of communication?

Fun...
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Isn't the 60 extra an option? If so there is nothing that needs to be done to cancel it ....just don't exercise the option.
 
TOareaFan said:
Isn't the 60 extra an option? If so there is nothing that needs to be done to cancel it ....just don't exercise the option.
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Precisely.

My recollection without checking is that the order was for 204 cars with an option on 400 more. 300 of those were assigned to Metrolinx for the Transit City vehicles, while TTC retains an option for 100, which they'll likely have to exercise by some point in 2016. So nothing to cancel.

Though if TTC cancels the contract based on Bombardier's poor performance, then it may well lead to the cancellation of the Metrolinx and Waterloo cars as well.

I very much doubt they'd go down this past based on delays. if there were massive quality issues with the vehicles that had arrived, perhaps, but that doesn't appear to be the case, with them all in service most days for the past week.

It's not like starting from scratch with a new vendor is going to get them here any faster ... and I doubt whoever bids on this would be anywhere close to as cheap as Bombardier was.
 
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Tuscani01 said:
Because going the cheap route clearly worked for us originally...
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Bombardier has been doing fine with both the subway car delivery (which are far cheaper cars than the ones tendered openly for Montreal) and the GO car delivery.

The incoming quality is good enough that they are running most of the time. Surely it's faster to work with them to ramp up production. That it's a lot cheaper too is almost irrelevant!
 
The 60 are an option and was to kick-in when the 60th new car show up. That was before the mess surface.

I would recommend that TTC put the extra 60 cars out for tender "WORLD WIDE" now!! It must state anyone can bid on it regardless if built 100% off shore, thou it would be nice if assembly took place in Toronto.

If the contract is cancel, This will set the new fleet replacement back 5 years or less depending when tender go to bidders. Since there is an existing tender, It will require some modification so it comply with what TTC has now in the way of rolling stock. Bidders would be allow to fully inspect what TTC has now. I would allow the bidders to add options that would benefit TTC in the end at less cost. I would move to steering wheels in place of fix 100%.

There were other bidders out there that would had beaten Bombardier price if Thunder Bay wasn't in the picture at the time.
 
They were cheap thanks to cutting corners, outsourcing, and cutting wages/workers.

I agree that the product we have received so far is great though. Question is, could paying a bit more have got us a better product, with less delays? Also, what are these delays costing us?
 
Tuscani01 said:
I agree that the product we have received so far is great though. Question is, could paying a bit more have got us a better product, with less delays?
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Good question; though blame would still be on Bombardier. They could have bid 40% higher and still been the low bid. They dug themselves this hole.
 
georgevicbell said:
So from the sounds of it Bombardier disagrees with the August 2015 date...it will be interesting to see what the outcome of this is...could we be looking at a cancelled streetcar order? Could we be looking at Bombardier not being able to bid? Could this just be a way of cancelling the 60 extra car order? Is the TTC somehow at fault for change orders and lack of communication?

Fun...
Click to expand...

It depends. If the instructions to change were because Bombardier was trying to create a product that did not meet the required specifications, then Bombardier is clearly at fault, as they bid based on meeting certain specifications.

I suspect that the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and that Bombardier is entitled to some schedule adjustment due to the instructions to change, but not totally off the hook.

Terminating the contract at this point (ie. going nuclear) would be a huge over-reaction. It would begin a process that would see millions upon millions of dollars sunk into legal fees, and would still not help us to get streetcars any faster. They would be further ahead by working with Bombardier to speed-up production and keep threatening them with LDs if they don't meet the 60th car deadline (whenever that happens to be, after schedule adjustment or not).
 
The TTC order was financed, in part, by the Province. The only two Liberal-held seats from Northern Ontario in the Legislature are from Thunder Bay. Ontario is seeing manufacturing jobs vanish.

There are articles in both the Globe and the Financial Post discussing BBD's poor stock performance. Both focus on the company's troubled air sector and don't even mention the rail business, let alone reporting anything about how this order isn't progressing well.

As yet, the TTC hasn't had to withdraw a visible number of CLRV/ALRV vehicles from service permanently. The fleet keeps running, bandaids or not.

The TTC is doing its diligence and positioning itself so that it's clear that they aren't tolerating BBD's poor performance.

Will the TTC actually pull the trigger on BBD? I'd love to peek at that "confidential attachment". A 5% penalty seems like a drop in the bucket.

I doubt Ms Wynne has what it takes to play hardball here, and I suspect that she, and not the TTC, has the hammer on this issue.

- Paul
 
Unless the TTC believes that Bombardier cannot fulfill the contract eventually, what's the point of termination? Termination means they can seek LDs (which they can do anyway) but also must begin a costly legal process that they need to bankroll and given the financial state of Bombardier in general (the market is very worried about their liquidity) might not get them anywhere anyway. You cannot get blood from a stone.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Why is that?
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Bombardier wants to spin off it's rail business with an IPO, to pay down debt incurred from the aerospace wing. If this contract is terminated, it would significantly reduce the attractiveness of that IPO and could do some serious harm to the company. The C-Series debacle could continue to sink the company. Depending on how bad, they may be unable to fulfill the contracts with Metrolinx. From what I understand, this is already happening, as the LRT car frames are about a year behind schedule due to quality control issues at the Mexico plant.
 
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