TTC: Bloor Danforth Line 2 West Extension(s)

[robmausser]

Hey guys, i'm just going to play devils advocate here:

Some of the routes you are suggesting have much of the subway running in the Milton corridor.

If there is an LRT on Hurontario, an LRT on Dundas in Mississauga, and GO RER with 7-15 minute service along the Lakeshore and eventually the Milton corridor, is there really a point to extend the subway? For similar cost you could easily quadruple track and electrify Milton corridor, or the eventual "Missing Link" will negate that.

I feel like outside of very dense areas like downtown Toronto, a mix of LRT and rapid, frequent all day electrified rail service is a better system that will cover more area for the same cost.

Also, if you think that the TTC is going to extend the bloor subway into mississauga and allow you to ride with a single $3.25 TTC fare, think again. PRESTO is inevitably putting an end to that.

 

[crs1026]

Hey guys, i'm just going to play devils advocate here:

Some of the routes you are suggesting have much of the subway running in the Milton corridor.

If there is an LRT on Hurontario, an LRT on Dundas in Mississauga, and GO RER with 7-15 minute service along the Lakeshore and eventually the Milton corridor, is there really a point to extend the subway?

I agree, that argues for not going too heavy on higher level transit on Dundas - provided we get on with RER.. However, the bus connections from Burhnamthorpe and Bloor and Rathburn are extremely well used at peak. Those riders don't take Miway south to the GO today, even though GO Milton is one of the best frequencies of any line. Either they aren't heading downtown, or the current bus is a more direct path to the subway. That makes me think that the leg to Cloverdale and 427 is justifiable.

- Paul

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

@robmausser raises a good point.

The Dundas Corridor should be imagined similar to the Eglinton Crosstown corridor in Toronto. Service should be rapid but still local in nature. The Milton Line should eventually be thought of as the route to Downtown Toronto.

I think a one-stop extension to Honeydale makes sense regardless, because of the ability to create a better interchange station for TTC, Mississauga and Metrolinx, and for the development potential surrounding the site. The subway should not be extended on Dundas into Mississauga however.

 

[Jeff Morgan]

Can they have such frequent trains on the Milton line? I thought they were constrained.

 

[BurlOak]

Hey guys, i'm just going to play devils advocate here:

I agree with you too.
The extension to Honeydale (427) is only feasible since it can be done on the north edge of the rail corridor for cheap. Once you are talking of going on Dundas, or going under the 427 to get to Sherway, the costs go up exponentially.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Can they have such frequent trains on the Milton line? I thought they were constrained.

Welcome!

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I still don't get why we can't stick to Dundas. Hell, it's already marked as a rapid transit corridor, we'd just be moving the subway/BRT interchange closer to the Mississauga border, have free space for a new mobility hub instead of ducking around hydro towers, and also provide a convenient launch point for the future 427 BRT South.

The next station after Kipling should definitely be directly at East Mall Cres and Dundas, but in doing so doesn't mean that the line couldn't veer down to West Mall and Queensway thereafter. Like this:



The best thing about this alignment is that it could be elevated the majority of the way, saving costs from no tunneling the ROW.

I think we are losing focus on building a network here.



This sounds like a 'build it and they will come' justification. Isn't that what 'we' are using to justify SSE?

I do not see a subway on Dundas west of the 427 as overkill because it makes operations more efficient, and creates a better mobility hub. I place a high value on that, but maybe that's just me.



This is a good point, but I don't think it prohibits including it in a network approach. A Queensway LRT/streetcar would be a great way of densifying that corridor.



Again, although the corridor was ruled out, it wouldn't hurt to implement something higher order than buses.

----

Bringing all of this together, I think it would be prudent to take a network approach to this.

• Extend Line 2 west to the West Mall, and start Dundas BRT operations from this point.
• Implement Waterfront West LRT as planned
• Implement Highway 427 South BRT, and extend to Long Branch.
• Create higher-order Transit on Queensway.

These create conditions that make transit operations and transfers more efficient, and spur development in multiple corridors. I would consider them minor revisions to what's already laid out in The Big Move. It's a lot of money in total, but if you implement this network, piece-by-piece, I think you get something way more efficient than a crazy subway extension to Sherway; a network of 5 transit lines and 3 mobility hubs.

I can agree with all three of these, but my only concern is about the turn and how that would affect the subway cars if this was to go to sherway.

MT does not prefer Islington and can live with Kipling until Cloverdale surface. It will save MT 7 minutes per bus using Kipling over Islington.

More important, TTC, the local councilors and the resident want MT Out of Toronto 100%, considering they bring in 50% plus riders for Islington today.

Metrolinx wants Cloverdale over Kipling since its the Gateway Hub under the Big Move. It will allow GO Buses faster on/off the 427 to/from the Gateway Hub than Kipling.

Cloverdale will save MT 3-5 minutes over Kipling per bus. That will be the same saving for TTC buses as well.

The land is set aside for a new Cloverdale Terminal, as well a new GO Station.

Splitting MT into 2 different terminal will effect various MT Riders since they transfer at Islington today. To do this will forces MT to pay an extra fare to go one stop.

If one checks all the development proposal on the south side of Dundas from Kipling to 427, all industrial buildings and strip malls are history.

Using these lands and the rail corridor for a surface subway is not in the plan anymore.

As a note, a fair number of Toronto residents use MT alone various routes to get to/from work in Mississauga as well shop there. Once you remove MT from Islington to Kipling, it will effect a few. Once you do Cloverdale, it will effect a lot more.

From everthing I have read on the Toronto Transit website, MT like islington. Right now they don't stop at Kipling, even though people get off there. My question is would MT support a Bloor extension into mississauga?

 

[drum118]

I can agree with all three of these, but my only concern is about the turn and how that would affect the subway cars if this was to go to sherway.


From everthing I have read on the Toronto Transit website, MT like islington. Right now they don't stop at Kipling, even though people get off there. My question is would MT support a Bloor extension into mississauga?

Transit Toronto may say MT likes Islington, but the power to be folks prefer Kipling and will love Cloverdale more.

MT riders get off at Kipling for the simple fact of a faster trip and getting a seat east of it than at Islington.

No, Mississauga will never pay part of the extension into it as it make no sense nor is there a ridership based in the first place. Dundas has over a 1,000 riders at peak today and no where near a subway level. let alone BRT. Other than Dundas, what other location in Mississauga could service more riders to justify an extension??

MT has look at running a route to Islington after the move since over 500 riders work in the area today.

 

[robmausser]

Can they have such frequent trains on the Milton line? I thought they were constrained.

They can if only two options happen:

1. They add 2 more tracks in the corridor. Still cheaper than a subway

2. The Missing Link happens https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...t-from-a-missing-link-freight-rail-route.html
which would open up the Milton Line to only passenger service, amongst other areas of the GTA as well. Probably not as cheap as a subway extension per say, but it affords many other opportunities in transit development all over the GTA, so when broken down into its distinct parts it would be.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

They can if only two options happen:

1. They add 2 more tracks in the corridor. Still cheaper than a subway

2. The Missing Link happens https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...t-from-a-missing-link-freight-rail-route.html
which would open up the Milton Line to only passenger service, amongst other areas of the GTA as well. Probably not as cheap as a subway extension per say, but it affords many other opportunities in transit development all over the GTA, so when broken down into its distinct parts it would be.

Won't that cost 2 billion though?

 

[drum118]

Won't that cost 2 billion though?

I have to go and look for the detail report by Wynne 2014 election cost report for the Milton Line upgrade to 4 tracks by 2022. It was around $1.3 Billion that included a fly under at Humber, a few grade separation, with all day service to Meadowvalle.

You have enough room in most places to get the max 4 tracks in, but a few spots will be needed more land to do this. All the bridges need to be upgraded to 4 with some only needing 1 extra track as the other one were built for it years ago when the line was to be 3 tracks. Hurontario bridge is to be 4 when they built the LRT and remove the existing 2 tracks ones.

You can't get more than 4 tracks in the Kipling area due to the Hydro corridor.

The 2005 numbers for the subway extension was $650 million.

 

[vic]

MT riders get off at Kipling for the simple fact of a faster trip and getting a seat east of it than at Islington.

I take the #76 commuting out to Mississauga. Coming back to Toronto in the evening, I'd say only about 1/4 to 1/3 of people get off at Kipling, myself included. Most people stay on until Islington. I don't think getting off at Kipling is much faster, as I often see people from my bus get on the same train as me at Islington. It's a longer walk into the station too, crappy if the weather is bad. My main reason for getting off at Kipling though is, as you said, guaranteed first choice of seat.

 

[drum118]

I take the #76 commuting out to Mississauga. Coming back to Toronto in the evening, I'd say only about 1/4 to 1/3 of people get off at Kipling, myself included. Most people stay on until Islington. I don't think getting off at Kipling is much faster, as I often see people from my bus get on the same train as me at Islington. It's a longer walk into the station too, crappy if the weather is bad. My main reason for getting off at Kipling though is, as you said, guaranteed first choice of seat.

I take 3 and get off at Islington since its a short walk to the station. A number of times, I have to move to another car to get a seat and then it depends what stop I am getting off at.

If the walking distance was shorter, more riders would get off, but not prepare to deal with the weather in the first place.

Some riders getting off at Kipling are catching a TTC bus in the first place, not the subway.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I have to go and look for the detail report by Wynne 2014 election cost report for the Milton Line upgrade to 4 tracks by 2022. It was around $1.3 Billion that included a fly under at Humber, a few grade separation, with all day service to Meadowvalle.

You have enough room in most places to get the max 4 tracks in, but a few spots will be needed more land to do this. All the bridges need to be upgraded to 4 with some only needing 1 extra track as the other one were built for it years ago when the line was to be 3 tracks. Hurontario bridge is to be 4 when they built the LRT and remove the existing 2 tracks ones.

You can't get more than 4 tracks in the Kipling area due to the Hydro corridor.

The 2005 numbers for the subway extension was $650 million.

So I believe it's at at least 1.6 billion. I guess the subway was cheaper. But I think Milton is worth it.

 

[robmausser]

So I believe it's at at least 1.6 billion. I guess the subway was cheaper. But I think Milton is worth it.

I'm very skeptical of anyone saying a subway extension is cheaper than above rail.

Tunneling is always much more expensive than laying down some tracks.

Perhaps cheaper if it's a short extension, but looking at per KM basis and the best bang for your buck im doubtful.