TTC: Bloor Danforth Line 2 West Extension(s)

[drum118]

This was a hot topic on CFRB 1010 today - apparently councillor Carolyn Parrish in Mississauga is pushing to get the Hurontario LRT replaced by a westward extension of the Bloor-Danforth subway from Kipling to Square One.

I guess she didn't hear what the rest of council was saying about the subway? Council has no interest in a subway on Hurontario and want a ready project once money surface for transit in Mississauga so construction can get underway ASP..

It was stated a subway may happen, but not for the current and next generation children.

If you going to put a subway on Dundas, it needs to be 100% on it west of 427.

Even though there is no density along this corridor, with right planning you can put 400,000 new residents and employment there.

Getting to Cloverdale is number 1 project at this time.

After listening to council, I will be writing a report dealing with the various issues that was raised and talked about on Wed.

The Mayor is still pushing to have CP move onto CN Halton Line.

 

[nfitz]

How about no?

Fun fact: the distance from Kipling to Square one is roughly equal to the distance from Kipling to Spadina.

Fun fact, the distance from Square One to St. George is roughly equal to the distance from Sheppard/McCowan to St. George, from Vaughan to St. George, and from Richmond Hill to Union. We don't seem to have any problem extending the Danforth line or the Yonge line that far from their centre points. Kenndy is already further from downtown than Kipling, and yet that's where the next Line 2 extension is?

I'm not saying we should do this. However basing the argument on the distance from downtown surely doesn't work, because the other 3 lines (Spadina, Yonge, and Danforth) already extend, or are planned to be extended just as far, or further.

 

[robmausser]

Fun fact, the distance from Square One to St. George is roughly equal to the distance from Sheppard/McCowan to St. George, from Vaughan to St. George, and from Richmond Hill to Union. We don't seem to have any problem extending the Danforth line or the Yonge line that far from their centre points. Kenndy is already further from downtown than Kipling, and yet that's where the next Line 2 extension is?

I'm not saying we should do this. However basing the argument on the distance from downtown surely doesn't work, because the other 3 lines (Spadina, Yonge, and Danforth) already extend, or are planned to be extended just as far, or further.

To me the line shouldn't be extended when there is a perfectly good rail corridor in the area that will eventually support express rail services.

When the distance from downtown is so far that express rail would be a faster alternative, as well as cheaper to build, its a no brainer.

Maybe in 1980 this was a good idea, but things have changed and regional express rail and fare integration are the way to go.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

How about no?

Fun fact: the distance from Kipling to Square one is roughly equal to the distance from Kipling to Spadina. That's right, we would essentially be doubling the bloor lines length on the west side.

Fun fact: there is rapid transit currently being constructed/in service between Square One and Renforth at Eglinton (Renforth Gateway). You will have two future potential rapid transit connections from there into Toronto: 1) Highway 427 South (from Kipling), and 2) the Eglinton Crosstown west extension/John Tory's SmartTrack.

From this perspective, a Line 2 Extension makes no economic sense and duplicates things.

 

[CDL.TO]

Using that map that Hopkins posted, MCC to St. Andrew would be 29 subway stops.

Had to go compare NYC. The A from all the way out in Far Rockaway takes 20 stops to get to Downtown (Fulton St) or 26 to Midtown (42 St).

It would be a loooong trip out to MCC (and probably overcrowded too). Not too attractive.

I've been harping on for years about suburban rail offering a higher quality experience to Mississauga residents at a lower cost of implementation, but there's lost of people who don't want to hear it. SmartTrack/RER/suburban rail/REX/regional rail cannot come quickly enough. Once people see it in action it's going to completely change the debate.

 

[nfitz]

Using that map that Hopkins posted, MCC to St. Andrew would be 29 subway stops.

Even now there seems to be a lot of U of T students who even know bus to Kipling and then take the subway to St. George.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

I've been harping on for years about suburban rail offering a higher quality experience to Mississauga residents at a lower cost of implementation, but there's lost of people who don't want to hear it. SmartTrack/RER/suburban rail/REX/regional rail cannot come quickly enough. Once people see it in action it's going to completely change the debate.

We always circle back to this in the GO threads, but the biggest barrier to RER on the Milton Line is CP. That's their mainline, and there will need to be major improvements (read: major $$) to implement RER to their satisfaction.

I'd prefer to build a new mainline for CP around the top of Toronto instead, freeing up the corridor for RER service from Milton to West Toronto to Agincourt. But it's just as insane, doing that would be nothing short of playing Sim City and bulldozing homes and businesses for a private company (technically, to build public transit, but it will never be percepted that way).

 

[Transportfan]

This was a hot topic on CFRB 1010 today - apparently councillor Carolyn Parrish in Mississauga is pushing to get the Hurontario LRT replaced by a westward extension of the Bloor-Danforth subway from Kipling to Square One.

Can you imagine if it were built; along with the east extension? MCC to SCC by subway. Wow.

I wonder how the TTC would handle the fare structure if it were. Absorbing the fares for the short distance to VMC is one thing; MCC is another.

 

[rbt]

We always circle back to this in the GO threads, but the biggest barrier to RER on the Milton Line is CP. That's their mainline, and there will need to be major improvements (read: major $$) to implement RER to their satisfaction.

A subway extension of this length is in the $4B range; just capital (ongoing maintenance/operations would be an interesting discussion on how to split it with Mississauga).

Even if beefing up Milton and creating a branch was the same price, I think it's better value (serves more riders). I also believe improving Milton service and creating a branch to Sq1 would be lower than $4B; though perhaps still as high as $2.5B.

 

[drum118]

Everyone want RR move so it doesn't go through their backyard, but who backyard is it going to through as it has to happen if those goods they want, wear, live in and drive are to show up, as it has to go through someone backyard??

If you don't want dangerous goods trains traveling through your backyard, I guess you want to go back to the 1700's as how you will live.

If any subway made its way to MCC, we will be a seamless systems with zones and 2 hour traveling time by then under one system.

The Milton Line will come 4 tracks by 2022 at a cost of about $1.5B and is part of the Government 10 year plan.

As I stated in the past, we can run a tram-train to MCC by the way of Hurnontario LRT easy using LRT equipment on the mainline as part of an REX system. Sweden does this as well a number of other places.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

From this perspective, a Line 2 Extension makes no economic sense and duplicates things.

I don't think that argument has any bearing because it would be Mississauga paying for this hypothetical extension. Just like Vaughan/York paid for that nonsensical Spadina extension.

STC and SQ1 are equal distances away from downtown, and a loooot of people in Mississauga currently bus it to Kipling to destinations downtown. I'll agree that this is definitely not a priority for Toronto by any means, we have other projects to prioritize. So like with Vaughan, let's wait until Mississauga decides they want it and are willing to pay for it. (Or maybe by then travel routes change with GO-RER and a western extension beyond East Mall/Sherway becomes a non-issue)

 

[drum118]

I don't think that argument has any bearing because it would be Mississauga paying for this hypothetical extension. Just like Vaughan/York paid for that nonsensical Spadina extension.

STC and SQ1 are equal distances away from downtown, and a loooot of people in Mississauga currently bus it to Kipling to destinations downtown. I'll agree that this is definitely not a priority for Toronto by any means, we have other projects to prioritize. So like with Vaughan, let's wait until Mississauga decides they want it and are willing to pay for it. (Or maybe by then travel routes change with GO-RER and a western extension beyond East Mall/Sherway becomes a non-issue)

Council has requested staff bring back a report why the RT wasn't built to MCC, but they are not really interested in having a line built at all.

My ward councilor want the line built along the Queensway to Hurontario and up Hurontario to MCC. Next to no one lives there let along work there to even support a 2 car train, let alone 6 cars. Even an LRT will have ridership issues, but would connect to the Queensway LRT line in Toronto if it every got off the ground.

 

[muller877]

Fun fact: there is rapid transit currently being constructed/in service between Square One and Renforth at Eglinton (Renforth Gateway). You will have two future potential rapid transit connections from there into Toronto: 1) Highway 427 South (from Kipling), and 2) the Eglinton Crosstown west extension/John Tory's SmartTrack.

From this perspective, a Line 2 Extension makes no economic sense and duplicates things.

Fun Fact! There is a rapid transit connection in service between Kipling and Union (GO Train). You have a rapid connection from there into Toronto.

From this perspective, a Bloor Subway makes no economic sense and duplicates things!!!!!!

.....you comment is very simplistic. Mississauga needs multiple types of transit just like Toronto and Dundas is a long way from the BRT line (about 3.5km....Bloor to Eglinton is 4km)

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Even now there seems to be a lot of U of T students who even know bus to Kipling and then take the subway to St. George.

That's because the alternative is Bus + GO + TTC, which is costly, often involves long wait times and not that much (if at all) faster. RER with appropriate fares would alleviate that issue.

AoD

 

[muller877]

We always circle back to this in the GO threads, but the biggest barrier to RER on the Milton Line is CP. That's their mainline, and there will need to be major improvements (read: major $$) to implement RER to their satisfaction.

I'd prefer to build a new mainline for CP around the top of Toronto instead, freeing up the corridor for RER service from Milton to West Toronto to Agincourt. But it's just as insane, doing that would be nothing short of playing Sim City and bulldozing homes and businesses for a private company (technically, to build public transit, but it will never be percepted that way).

...and people also forget about constitutional responsibility. The CP line is an inter-provincial line and is regulated by the feds. If push comes to shove I'm not sure if Ontario could do anything with it without the federal governments approval. (plus it is owned by a private entity and not publically owned)