TTC: Bloor Danforth Line 2 West Extension(s)

[BurlOak]

How is this an improvement over Square One Milton branch with frequent and fast service to the existing Kipling Station and Union Station? Kipling is only about 15 minutes away from SqOne by GO REX (including average waiting time) and there are substantial benefits to linking Union directly to the Square One bus terminal with with express frequent service (35 minute trip?)

Yeah, given infinite capital money I'd do both. Right now, with the money on the table, GO improvements win by a substantial margin.

The 1 stop subway extension SHOULD be a $300-400M or so project. It would for the BRT's that are utilizing the 427 corridor and the Dundas BRT. I agree it would not help the Sq1 riders much - although it is better than the Transitway to 427 to Kipling that is their current plight.

I am not sure about the Milton Branch - has that been costed to any degree. I am not saying it is not worthy, I just do not know enough about it.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

One stop extension to the 427/East Mall with a moved GO station and shifted bus routes and terminals seems like a worthwhile project.

I don't think many are advocating for an extension all the way to Square One, just that should it happen (which Mississauga currently doesn't support) then it would be with funding from the City of Mississauga. Like with the Vaughan extension, if Mississauga wanted and were paying for it, I don't see us saying no.

 

[CDL.TO]

I don't think many are advocating for an extension all the way to Square One, just that should it happen (which Mississauga currently doesn't support) then it would be with funding from the City of Mississauga. Like with the Vaughan extension, if Mississauga wanted and were paying for it, I don't see us saying no.

Toronto is saying no the the Yonge extension to Richmond Hill without a downtown relief line (or other sufficient capacity improvements) first. In the same way, I could see us saying no to a Bloor extension if the expected ridership would overload the system down the line.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

How is this an improvement over Square One Milton branch with frequent and fast service to the existing Kipling Station and Union Station? Kipling is only about 15 minutes away from SqOne by GO REX (including average waiting time) and there are substantial benefits to linking Union directly to the Square One bus terminal with with express frequent service (35 minute trip?)

Yeah, given infinite capital money I'd do both. Right now, with the money on the table, GO improvements win by a substantial margin.

You're right. The Bloor line is already near capacity and adding more passengers when there's already a viable alternative route is counter-productive especially when funds are limited. RER GO combined with the Hurontario LRT is the best option. Besides, it's not like Mississauga asked for it either.

We can't even get regular service on the Milton Line right now.

 

[Cobra]

We can't even get regular service on the Milton Line right now.

By the time the LRT is operating or even if there were to be a subway, Metrolinx has years to buy those tracks

 

[MrsNesbitt]

I can see the merit in a short extension of Line 2 in order to make the trip easier for the bus routes converging on Kipling presently, but given the budgetary constraints I would far rather see frequent GO service extended to the Milton line at least to Cooksville. The Hurontario LRT will do wonders for linking Square One with the GO network then in the absence of an expensive tunneled spur.

I don't think it's a good precedent to give even more credence to, to start extending subways out of the City of Toronto. We need to use the GO network more and rely less on TTC anyways.

 

[drum118]

Under MTO current thinking, you will never see any surface BRT or Subway ROW on 427. MTO has no room to expand or add new lanes to replace the space that is needed for an ROW. You only will get shoulder service like MT does today.

Taking the 2 line to Cloverdale is all that is needed now for everyone and will deal with the mess at Kipling today, let alone in 19/20 when the Regional Terminals open up.

TTC will save $$ by not dead heading bus service to/from Kipling once the Cloverdale station is open as well MT, GO, BT and YRT.

You could build more parking spots there.

Again, not everyone is getting on GO or 2 is going downtown. If you watch GO trains coming in from the west, a large number of riders get off at Kipling head to the subway or the buses.

You can run 427 service from the Lake Shore North better with a Cloverdale station than Kipling to the point you would not use Kipling under any plan due to excess travel time.

Someone change my mind about running REX service to Sq One that I would push 2 option for it now.

Option 1 would be a tram-train where LRT equipment is used so the service could use the Hurontario LRT line. Cost would be very cheap to do so.

Option 2 would be a tunnel to Sq One supporting DD EMU equipment.
Option 2a would see 2 but would continue under 403 and reconnect to the Milton Line. This would allow service to/from Milton as well to/from Toronto. Some of the Milton/Toronto runs would be full length runs. Cost to do the 2 options will be high and could be done in phases.

There will be 4 tracks in the Milton Corridor by 2022. As for going west of Milton, CP has to buy into it, as the line is single track to the point you may only need 3 tracks if CP is willing to live with 1 track in most places. Looking about 2030 before this happens.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

By the time the LRT is operating or even if there were to be a subway, Metrolinx has years to buy those tracks

CP will never sell their main line. Metrolinx has been dragging their feet on more tracks.

I can see the merit in a short extension of Line 2 in order to make the trip easier for the bus routes converging on Kipling presently, but given the budgetary constraints I would far rather see frequent GO service extended to the Milton line at least to Cooksville. The Hurontario LRT will do wonders for linking Square One with the GO network then in the absence of an expensive tunneled spur.

I don't think it's a good precedent to give even more credence to, to start extending subways out of the City of Toronto. We need to use the GO network more and rely less on TTC anyways.

I agree, the subway should stop at cloverdale. But that might not happen while the province wants to appease suburban areas. I wish the people at Fairbank, Silverthorn and Weston would have lobbied for the DRL to come to Mount Dennis Station.

 

[drum118]

CP will never sell their main line. Metrolinx has been dragging their feet on more tracks.


I agree, the subway should stop at cloverdale. But that might not happen while the province wants to appease suburban areas. I wish the people at Fairbank, Silverthorn and Weston would have lobbied for the DRL to come to Mount Dennis Station.

Unless CP sells off the eastern section of their system that they looked at doing over 20 years ago or so, CP will never sell their mainlines that includes the Galt Sub (Milton Line). They will look at allowing extra tracks added to their corridors so long it does not interfere with their operation and bearing next to no cost to them.

There is 3 tracks in a number of places along the Milton Line to the point GO hasn't used them in years. Haven't seen a GO train use the 3rd track at Erindale Station close to 5 years or more. Some of that had to do with the rebuilding of the station.

The 3rd track at Kipling was being used by CP to store auto racks on it or other equipment.

No idea who cancel the work for the missing sections of the 3rd track other than GO Transit before Metrolinx took them over. That was to be completed by 2011.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Sorry if any of this has been covered already, new to this thread.

Planning is going forward with a "Kipling Mobility Hub". Here are display boards from a PIC.

Trying to dance around Hydro One's towers really seems to have made less-than-optimal design. The extension would eliminate so many constraints. But is there a suitable patch of land that could accommodate a similar hub near the 427? I see two potential candidates:

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Unless CP sells off the eastern section of their system that they looked at doing over 20 years ago or so, CP will never sell their mainlines that includes the Galt Sub (Milton Line). They will look at allowing extra tracks added to their corridors so long it does not interfere with their operation and bearing next to no cost to them.

There is 3 tracks in a number of places along the Milton Line to the point GO hasn't used them in years. Haven't seen a GO train use the 3rd track at Erindale Station close to 5 years or more. Some of that had to do with the rebuilding of the station.

The 3rd track at Kipling was being used by CP to store auto racks on it or other equipment.

No idea who cancel the work for the missing sections of the 3rd track other than GO Transit before Metrolinx took them over. That was to be completed by 2011.

And now Metrolinx is claiming they need two more tracks for service.

 

[drum118]

Sorry if any of this has been covered already, new to this thread.

Planning is going forward with a "Kipling Mobility Hub". Here are display boards from a PIC.

Trying to dance around Hydro One's towers really seems to have made less-than-optimal design. The extension would eliminate so many constraints. But is there a suitable patch of land that could accommodate a similar hub near the 427? I see two potential candidates:

I believe the triangle is part of the development plan for that area that is already set a side for a new GO Station and transit hub. It offer more street walk-in than the other by the West Mall.

The West Mall has no access for GO as well parking.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Does the Kipling Mobility Hub investment make it redundant to extend the subway and move the GO station to the 427? With the Kipling Mobility Hub in place, what benefits are still to be gained by making the move westward? What would happen to the Kipling infrastructure after that move?

 

[BurlOak]

Sorry if any of this has been covered already, new to this thread.

Planning is going forward with a "Kipling Mobility Hub". Here are display boards from a PIC.

Trying to dance around Hydro One's towers really seems to have made less-than-optimal design. The extension would eliminate so many constraints. But is there a suitable patch of land that could accommodate a similar hub near the 427? I see two potential candidates:

View attachment 37854

I think that area east of West Mall was to be completely redeveloped. GO could be integrated with it.

 

[BurlOak]

Does the Kipling Mobility Hub investment make it redundant to extend the subway and move the GO station to the 427? With the Kipling Mobility Hub in place, what benefits are still to be gained by making the move westward? What would happen to the Kipling infrastructure after that move?

Once the Kipling Hub is built, it make no sense to extend the subway. your choices then would be:

1. Abandon the recently built Kipling Hub and build a new subway/BRT/GO 427 Hub.
2. Build a bus only Hub at 427 and have people take the subway 1 stop to access GO.
3. Build parking garage at 427 and have people take the subway 1 stop to access Bus and GO.

The conclusion seems to be that you build the Hub correctly at 427 now, or chose the inferior Kipling plan that Metrolinx prefers.