RyanM12
New Member
There's no way the King line can be built North of Bloor. Too close in proximity to justify. If anything the East side could use the OL tunnel to branch.
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There's no way the King line can be built North of Bloor. Too close in proximity to justify. If anything the East side could use the OL tunnel to branch.
north-of-anything
Active Member
This is a really big thing I just did, and I'm so stoked that I finally can share it. This is a culmination of all sorts of ideas I've had of how to improve Toronto's public transit system. I'm not super happy about the formatting, but considering what I had, I think it gets the point across without having too many colours.
I originally planned to have an Albion-Wilson-Bathurst line and a Dufferin-Wilson-York Mills line, but I think this arrangement works better because few people would be travelling from end to end anyways, and it would be more convenient for riders if the lines travelled in a relatively consistent direction. I'm not thrilled about the Classic LRT line arrangement south of Bloor/east of Parkside, but my focus was more on unlocking development potential in the yellow belt for this map.
(Edited to re-upload a new version, because the old one had a misplaced label.)
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Neutrino
Senior Member
Love it.
Some suggestions: Finch West should go to Pearson and Finch; Finch east of Yonge should be LRT; Ellesmere BRT/LRT; Lawrence West BRT/LRT; DRL West; SSE; Queensway should be LRT; Barrie GO station at Line 2; Scarborough hydro corridor BRT.
Some suggestions: Finch West should go to Pearson and Finch; Finch east of Yonge should be LRT; Ellesmere BRT/LRT; Lawrence West BRT/LRT; DRL West; SSE; Queensway should be LRT; Barrie GO station at Line 2; Scarborough hydro corridor BRT.
BurlOak
Senior Member
I don't understand this comment. I assume you are referring to the East leg.
Here are some more details of the Eastern half of the network.
1. For all new lines, I propose the same Ontario Line Trains - which would be about 3.1m wide and 120m long. Minimum turning radius would be 100m, but preferably 200m.
2. Downtown, I chose the DRL routing instead of the OL routing - but still call it the Ontario Line. Basically, I don't agree that the cross-platform transfer is needed (which is the main Ontario Line selling feature), and as long as the transfer at Broadview (and The Ex) is easier than Union (which is not hard), people will still avoid Union. I did take out the Carlaw jog. These are all underground lines - with cut-and-cover used where possible.
I wanted an interchange for the two line here, but since they are built a decade apart (and due to other logistics), it would be a Moss Park Station - with platforms that are not directly above each other to simplify construction. It's a bit of a catch 22 whether I want to be close to Sherbourne or minimize the walk between the 2 Moss Park platforms.
3. Castle Frank would be the interchange between the King (K) Line and the Bloor (B) Line. I couldn't find the exact elevation of the B Line and of Bloor Street - but I am hoping that the new K Line can go under Parliament and Bloor and then emerge and go just above the B Line. About 5.5m elevation difference between the top of Bloor and top of Bloor Line bridge would be needed. (I also considered going up Rosedale Valley a bit farther and making the turn onto Sherbourne or Jarvis, the former which makes the curve to King more difficult).
4. At Thorncliffe, the two lines (O and K) come together again. One reason is that the Scarborough portion of the Line come out at roughly this location, so why not have an interchange. The second is for the interim condition when the downtown portion of the K Line is not built - basically to isolate the Scarborough portion, make it more constructable in the upcoming decade, and to fit it in the funding envelope of the current 3 stop SSE (L2EE). So at Thorncliffe, the two line come together and share the common portion down along Pape. The K Line also passes by the Train Yard - something that required extra track in the Ontario Line plan. These are all elevated lines, so a few extra stations are added to this area (Flemingdon and Gateway).
There's little dispute on the route, so I didn't show it here, but eventually the Ontario Line is extended north to Seneca College.
5. Scarborough is where the King Line eventually makes it to. All elevated, it crosses the Don Valley at the north edge of the hydro line, then curve up Vic Park and across Ellesmere. The King Line would have an interchange with GO at Ellesmere. Before Brimley, it would go north and head through STC just south (about 70m) of the existing SRT. This is because the SRT will continue to be in operation while the King Line is built. It would continue to Centennial College (optional station at Bellamy) and then curve back down to Ellesmere and across to UTSC.
Sheppard would also be converted to these new trains, because of the need for tighter curves and steeper grades. The line will curve south of Sheppard, and elevate quickly after leaving Fairview Mall so that it can elevate over 404 and continue along the south side of Sheppard to Midland, and down Midland to join up with the existing SRT. Likely major renovation is needed to the SRT (or complete replacement), but at least the area is served by the K Line during this construction. This S Line would follow the proposed route of the Transit City S/LRT, and creating a second interchange with the K Line at Centennial.
6. So that covers the east side of Toronto. One thing not mentioned is the Finch LRT being extended to Seneca, and the Eglinton East. Eglinton East would be underground to McCowan, and on-street branches would go to STC (and likely Finch or Steeles) and the other branch going to UTSC. For capacity reasons - they may have to reconsider the Eglinton Line between Laird and Kennedy, and this may have to become grade-separated after all.
7. I didn't show the GO network, which would have reasonably frequent service along Lakeshore, Markham, and Richmond Hill corridors. Also not shown is improved buses (BRT Lite), along Kingston Road from Pickering to Main (or Vic Park) Station and the improved streetcar network (i.e. QQE).
Rainforest
Senior Member
This is a really big thing I just did, and I'm so stoked that I finally can share it. This is a culmination of all sorts of ideas I've had of how to improve Toronto's public transit system. I'm not super happy about the formatting, but considering what I had, I think it gets the point across without having too many colours.
I originally planned to have an Albion-Wilson-Bathurst line and a Dufferin-Wilson-York Mills line, but I think this arrangement works better because few people would be travelling from end to end anyways, and it would be more convenient for riders if the lines travelled in a relatively consistent direction. I'm not thrilled about the Classic LRT line arrangement south of Bloor/east of Parkside, but my focus was more on unlocking development potential in the yellow belt for this map.
(Edited to re-upload a new version, because the old one had a misplaced label.)
Nice map. I like some concepts, including: the massive BRT network, the Warden LRT, some of the new downtown streetcar arrangements.
The Bathurst -Dufferin BRT jog is an interesting idea. Makes sense from the density perspective, although the width of Dufferin still would be an issue. South of Eglinton, it would be hard to expand Dufferin to more than 4 lanes.
A big problem with this map is in Scarborough: no link at all between the Kennedy Stn and Scarborough Centre. If you are religiously opposed to SSE, that's fine for the Fantasy Map thread. But, then you need an LRT link or a GO / RER rail link to handle that connection. As it stands, Scarborough Centre has connections east and north, but not south or west where the vast majority of riders want to go. The existing peak demand between Kennedy and STC is at least 6,000 pphpd, not to mention the future growth.
The Finch line should be continuous: either LRT all the way east, or at least expand the BRT (running from the east) to Finch West station where it will connect to the LRT. There is no good reason for a 4-km gap between Bathurst and Keele.
The York Mills BRT should extend east, past Don Mills. Th most challenging section of the Wilson / York Mills route would be the one around Yonge, roughly from Avenue Rd. to Bayview, because of the hills. If you manage to get a BRT through that section, then it makes perfect sense to go further east where the construction will be much easier.
BurlOak
Senior Member
For Western Toronto.
1. The Ontario and King Lines cross again in the west (at Bathurst). I'm not convinced going to Exhibition is the best strategy - but it's not a terrible idea, and it provides an opportunity for an interchange station in the West. The King Line has stations on the Kitchener GO line, while the Ontario Line meets the LSE GO and Kitchener (@ Dundas West). The King Line is fully buried, while the Ontario Line may be elevated through Exhibition.
2. Crossing Bloor, the two line fan out a bit. The King Line gets to Keele, following roughly Davenport to make the job west. The Ontario Line follows Dundas to Scarlett Road.
Not shown, but the King Line likely stops at Lawrence - possibly someday meeting the Sheppard Line at Sheppard/Keele. This whole thing would have to be buried.
The Ontario Line could switch from buried to being elevated at Scarlett/St. Clair and go up Scarlett, then Weston Road, and eventually Albion.
3. Not shown, but Sheppard is extended west to Jane - possibly detouring north a bit to hit Downsview GO on the way.
4. Also not shown, Eglinton West LRT extended to Pearson. not much debate about this route - a combination of buried and elevated.
5. Some minor LRT extensions (Finch, Harbourfront). But really, the key is to get the main subway (rapid transit) lines right and a few LRT or BRT can be added to fill in some gaps.
1. The Ontario and King Lines cross again in the west (at Bathurst). I'm not convinced going to Exhibition is the best strategy - but it's not a terrible idea, and it provides an opportunity for an interchange station in the West. The King Line has stations on the Kitchener GO line, while the Ontario Line meets the LSE GO and Kitchener (@ Dundas West). The King Line is fully buried, while the Ontario Line may be elevated through Exhibition.
2. Crossing Bloor, the two line fan out a bit. The King Line gets to Keele, following roughly Davenport to make the job west. The Ontario Line follows Dundas to Scarlett Road.
Not shown, but the King Line likely stops at Lawrence - possibly someday meeting the Sheppard Line at Sheppard/Keele. This whole thing would have to be buried.
The Ontario Line could switch from buried to being elevated at Scarlett/St. Clair and go up Scarlett, then Weston Road, and eventually Albion.
3. Not shown, but Sheppard is extended west to Jane - possibly detouring north a bit to hit Downsview GO on the way.
4. Also not shown, Eglinton West LRT extended to Pearson. not much debate about this route - a combination of buried and elevated.
5. Some minor LRT extensions (Finch, Harbourfront). But really, the key is to get the main subway (rapid transit) lines right and a few LRT or BRT can be added to fill in some gaps.
JSF-1
Active Member
This isn't a shot directly at your plan but just a general thought, because I've seen this with the Metrolinx "future" plan as well. Why do most plans that have the OL or some equivalent going beyond Keel/Dundas West always miss Mount Dennis Station? Considering it will have bus access, GO Train access, UP access and Eglinton Crosstown access I find it odd everyone seems to miss sending the Subway to Mount Dennis and setting up as a west-end hub similar to Kennedy in Scarborough. It just seems like a no brainier to me and is something I've always had in my own long-term fantasy maps. As well turning Mount Dennis into a multi-model commuter hub can also be used as a launching point for the long since abandoned "York Centre" plan. I just find it strange we have this obvious choice right in front of us yet seem to somehow miss it. In my opinion not sending the OL or something like it to Mount Dennis would be a decision that would blow the minds of urban planers and transit planers the world over in its stupidity. I mean it's right there! How do you miss it?
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north-of-anything
Active Member
RyanM12
New Member
I don't know about that, I see a few different ideas in these threads.
I mean like this, it would poor planning to build a separate guideway 100m apart, and they couldn't justify it being built, especially when it's not serving any stops. This part could easily be interlined.
I don't see both lines being built so close to each other... if anything maybe keep the King line on Dufferin.
I like a lot of other ideas in the map though.
RyanM12
New Member
I really like this, I've often thought of similar lines, but terminating at Ontario Place is new to me. Is it feasable to get there underground? For a western DRL like this, I've had it continuing north and turning onto Kipling, to hit Rexdale and terminate at Finch.
BurlOak
Senior Member
I could easily move either line to pass through Mount Dennis, but I am not sure it is such a busy node. Currently it has ZERO rapid transit. It will soon have 2 (GO/UP and ECLRT). I always thought Mount Dennis had limited development opportunity with Eglinton Flats on one side and Black Creek on the other.
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BurlOak
Senior Member
Not sure if we are talking interim or final.
- Interim alignment here is for the King Line to come down from Scarborough and interline with the Ontario Line down Pape.
- Ultimately, I think there will be enough riders coming down from Scarborough and down from Fairview, that there wouldn't be the capacity to interline through Thorncliffe. Creating an interchange station helps connectivity, so I took the opportunity to create one here. That is why I set up parallel tracks - it could also create a 4 track, 2 platform (southbound and northbound) station with a cross-platform transfer for travelling in the same general direction.
They are close for a very short stretch - mostly because that is a convenient lcoation for both lines to shift towards the northwest.
I see the Spadina leg of the Y-Line choking off a Dufferin subway routing. Essentially, the Dufferin subway would have to stop at Yorkdale, and it would provide no real added coverage. I chose it going over to Keele, but I could live with going through Mount Dennis to Jane and up Jane.
Thanks.
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Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
I'm still more of a fan of sending the OL (in your scenario) to South Etobicoke. If the name of the game is supporting development potential, The Queensway corridor and Sherway Gardens is very attractive. Having both lines extend north of Bloor seems like a duplication of service.For Western Toronto.
1. The Ontario and King Lines cross again in the west (at Bathurst). I'm not convinced going to Exhibition is the best strategy - but it's not a terrible idea, and it provides an opportunity for an interchange station in the West. The King Line has stations on the Kitchener GO line, while the Ontario Line meets the LSE GO and Kitchener (@ Dundas West). The King Line is fully buried, while the Ontario Line may be elevated through Exhibition.
2. Crossing Bloor, the two line fan out a bit. The King Line gets to Keele, following roughly Davenport to make the job west. The Ontario Line follows Dundas to Scarlett Road.
Not shown, but the King Line likely stops at Lawrence - possibly someday meeting the Sheppard Line at Sheppard/Keele. This whole thing would have to be buried.
The Ontario Line could switch from buried to being elevated at Scarlett/St. Clair and go up Scarlett, then Weston Road, and eventually Albion.
BurlOak
Senior Member
I worry the Queensway route is too close to Bloor.
Could this run elevated along Queensway?
Would an elevated route beside the Gardiner (similar to Montreal REM) work?
Would elevated along Lakeshore be acceptable?
Is hitting Mimico or Humber shores important?
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Running elevated along the Gardiner works if the purpose was to intercept feeder routes. I don't think that is so important in this part of the city, and would be detrimental to fostering development along The Queensway. I would favour underground along The Queensway, I can't imagine it being as complicated or expensive of a tunnel as in Downtown Toronto. Elevated could work too.
Mimico has a GO station. There are alignment options that can hit both Humber Bay Shores and The Queensway, which I would welcome since I do believe it is an important node.