Transit Fantasy Maps

[44 North]

Here's a bit of a late night doodling incorporating Gweed's idea of splitting SmrtTrack. But instead of using the hydro corridor, the CPR Midtown corridor is used. As well there's a 2km tunnel under Ellesmere between Warden and Kennedy to connect with and bridge the SRT to the Crosstown. Oh yeah, but instead of the conventional DRL routing, the SmrtTrack diversion uses the abandoned 'Don Branch' to connect with Broadview and the Downtown Tunnel.

 

[gweed123]

Good stuff. I feel like our hydro corridors have a lot of untapped potential. I’ve seen many a transit enthusiast write them off completely (with reason). But there’s no denying the opportunity that can be had by using a barren grassy strip that runs for such considerable length.

A few things; not really a critique, rather my opinions on using the CPR corridor:

One: Using the CPR “Midtown Corridor” to run RT/RER trains between Don Mills and Kennedy seems to make a lot more sense...provided that some kind of rapid transit connection along Ellesmere is used to hook up with the SRT.

Two: Using this theoretical 2km Kennedy-to-Warden Ellesemere-CPR connector tunnel (or EL) would allow SmartTrack/SRT/Unionville RER to connect to Don Mills/Eglinton...which has a lot of potential to be a semi-important transit hub in the near future.

Three: The costs of tunnelling this 2km gap on Ellesmere and refurbishing the CPR corridor for RT/RER couldn’t be all that much more expensive than the new bridges or underpasses required when building along the hydro corridor.

Four: I feel another added benefit of using the CPR corridor is how it’s situated geographically, and that it’s at least somewhat equidistant between Sheppard and Eglinton. This provides adequate coverage in Scarboro with local service on Sheppard and Eglinton, and rapid commuter service bisecting the two. One could argue that because the hydro corridor is so close to Eglinton, why not just build on Eglinton to begin with. Or alternately, combine the Crosstown with the hydro corridor proposal and not build anything on Eglinton.

Here's a bit of a late night doodling incorporating Gweed's idea of splitting SmrtTrack. But instead of using the hydro corridor, the CPR Midtown corridor is used. As well there's a 2km tunnel under Ellesmere between Warden and Kennedy to connect with and bridge the SRT to the Crosstown. Oh yeah, but instead of the conventional DRL routing, the SmrtTrack diversion uses the abandoned 'Don Branch' to connect with Broadview and the Downtown Tunnel.

Very interesting ideas. Certainly the CPR corridor would make for a good option as well. My preference for using the Gatineau Hydro corridor is centred around the fact that the CPR corridor is a very active freight line. Therefore, to add any GO REX service to it it would require adding tracks. Given the physical constraints on much of the corridor, adding 2 new tracks may be difficult to achieve. The Gatineau corridor, however, is pretty wide open. Yes, Hydro One may be a PITA to deal with, but likely so will CP.

Also, I don't think using the Eglinton tunnel for any kind of GO REX service is in the cards at this point. The tunnel and the stations have been designed for LRT, and changes at this point would be pretty expensive. The DRL alignment south of Eglinton I have no problems with though, as we've discussed in previous posts. I think it's a good value design for the DRL, which is going to carry a hefty enough price tag as it is.

I just wanted to show an alternative to using a Lakeshore East + Stouffville combination for serving STC and Markham. Combining it with a GO REX DRL and branching off of that certainly solves a lot of problems, although admittedly it does create some new ones. Simply a 'think outside the box' exercise on my part.

 

[44 North]

I may’ve put Crosstown and ST together thinking (erroneously?) that GO Rex could potentially use LRT vehicles. Can’t recall. There was talk of “Tram Trains” awhile back, and it’s been on my mind. Even if it might not work it just sounds like an attractive idea - small commuter trains zipping along hydro corridors and through leafy greenspaces. Toronto has the most LRT in the western hemisphere, and nowhere to run them at high speeds (excluding Crosstown when it’s finished, but it’s hard to appreciate speed when in a tunnel). Although years back it seemed like late night drivers on the Dundas East and Gerrard bridges would routinely take our CLRVs up to what I can only presume was 90kmh. probably overestimating though.

I don’t know the technical info about trains and rail laws that much. But it seems that light rail could be a good solution because it can handle tighter turns, steeper grades, and run in the roadway. Though it makes sense for anything commuter-like to be interchangeable with GO and mainline railways. And I guess their inability to handle high ridership is an issue.

And for sure our hydro corridors have a lot of untapped potential for connecting key nodes. It’s interesting reading about the GO ALRT idea of using Finch. I wouldn’t rule their future use out at all, particularly if we start “undergrounding” our transmission lines - which has been happening throughout the GTA (but mostly with local high voltage lines, and usu for development purposes). But even with our recent ice storm I’d presume the Prov has looked at burying them. And perhaps they’re lucrative. Not sure if we’ll be seeing those mammoth pylons going anywhere, but no one would want a Quebec ’98 in the GTA.

And thanks for the comment about my DRL alternative. Most everyone agrees that the conventional DRL alignment is the best one and that it was needed decades ago. But I’d prefer a subway-style RT alternative than nothing (which I still think is an unfortunate possibility). Can’t hurt to look at and vet options.

 

[jcam]

They pulled down 52 hydro pylons and buried them in tunnels to free up the land for the London Olympics village and main venues. Real estate is just too valuable. You could do the same along our hydro corridors...good way to unlock value.

To Hydro: "We'd like you to bury your lines. Yes it'll cost you money, but we'll let you develop the excess land to help pay for it. By the way, lets look at whether we can run an LRT transit spine down the developments too. If it's economically feasibly, perhaps we're allow you to develop low-rise 4-storey density along the line to promote main-street style developments."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7726186.stm

In Etobicoke: roughly parallel to Martin Grove from Kipling to the 401 - bring some more affordable detached/townhouse housing to the area.
In Scarborough: Gatineau corridor noted previously

There are some narrower ones that spring off in Scarborough, but they look too narrow to get much in there.

 

[wopchop]

It's a great idea, but I don't envy the poor suckers who would have to deal with Hydro to accomplish that. They are quite possibly the worst government agency to deal with.

 

[gweed123]

Hydro corridors certainly do have a lot of development potential, if deals can be secured to unlock that potential. I think that putting some type of transit corridor down them would be an essential component of unlocking the value associated with burying the lines. Without transit, it's just more developable land in suburbia.

If the hydro corridors were to be developed, what I would like to see is high density clusters around each station, and park land in the mid-block sections. That would make the units in the high density clusters even more valuable: major transit line access, local transit via the cross street, and immediately adjacent park land.

 

[reaperexpress]

I've made many realistic fantasy maps, but this one is probably the most realistic.

It's a completed network of Rocket-series bus routes:

In order to allow more than 10 rocket routes, I'd switch them to the 200-series of route numbers. New routes are in bold.

200 Airport Rocket (currently 192)
225 Don Mills Rocket
227 Highway 27 Rocket (currently 191)
232 Eglinton West Rocket
235 Jane Rocket (currently 195)
236 Finch West Rocket
238 Ellesmere Rocket
239A Finch East Rocket to Scarborough Centre (currently 199)
239B Finch East Rocket to Seneca (Currently 39E)
284 Sheppard East Rocket (Currently 190)
286 Eglinton East Rocket (Currently 198)

 

[dunkalunk]

Switching to the 200-series makes quite a bit of sense. In general I like the idea of a certain class of service having it's own hundreds prefix, as well as being able to mirror the route number it paralells.

I'd actually extend a few of those routes further south. In particular, the 235 Jane via Parkside and Exhibition and the 225 via Lakeshore Blvd. I could also easily see express bus routes on Brown's Line and Islington in the west. Despite the excess road capacity, from personal experience taking transit from southern Etobicoke to anywhere is a pain.

It's my hope that express bus routes would be implemented as a precursor to some variety of higher-order transit; at the very least queue jump lanes and signal priority. In some cases, these routes would act as precursors to LRT or Subway.

 

[gweed123]

Switching to the 200-series makes quite a bit of sense. In general I like the idea of a certain class of service having it's own hundreds prefix, as well as being able to mirror the route number it paralells.

I'd actually extend a few of those routes further south. In particular, the 235 Jane via Parkside and Exhibition and the 225 via Lakeshore Blvd. I could also easily see express bus routes on Brown's Line and Islington in the west. Despite the excess road capacity, from personal experience taking transit from southern Etobicoke to anywhere is a pain.

It's my hope that express bus routes would be implemented as a precursor to some variety of higher-order transit; at the very least queue jump lanes and signal priority. In some cases, these routes would act as precursors to LRT or Subway.

Agreed. Well done, reaperexpress! I've always been a big fan of using B-Line style BRT as a precursor to fixed-infrastructure rapid transit (LRT, ICTS, or subway). The capital costs to set it up are pennies on the dollar in comparison to the other styles mentioned above, and they can provide a tangible service boost, and quickly.

Looking at the map, there are a few things I would personally change (just my suggestions though):

1) Extend the Airport Rocket and Highway 27 Rocket to Long Branch. This would make it infinitely easier for people from the west end of the GTA to have a 1 transfer ride to Pearson. Currently, the options to get to Pearson by transit from places like Oakville and Burlington are lacking, to say the least. Lakeshore GO + Airport Rocket makes it really easy.

2) I noticed that the Beaches Express isn't included on this map. Omission? Or was there a rationale behind it being dropped?

3) I would also add a Lakeshore West Rocket. Getting to Long Branch using the TTC is painfully slow, especially if you're starting from downtown (Queen St crawls). Having a Lakeshore Express route (E+W) would help a lot I think.

4) Something along Wilson/York Mills may also be warranted.

Overall, I really like the idea though, and the use of 200 series numbers gives them a clear differentiation from regular routes, much like 90-series routes in Ottawa, which transit riders here immediately know are Transitway routes.

 

[timio]

Overall, I really like the idea though, and the use of 200 series numbers gives them a clear differentiation from regular routes, much like 90-series routes in Ottawa, which transit riders here immediately know are Transitway routes.

200 series routes are iExpress routes in KWC (200,201,202,203 already in place with 204/205 coming this year). It's easier to differentiate from afar whether the next bus is going to stop or fly by.

 

[gweed123]

200 series routes are iExpress routes in KWC (200,201,202,203 already in place with 204/205 coming this year). It's easier to differentiate from afar whether the next bus is going to stop or fly by.

Yup, I agree it makes total sense. I was just making a point that a similar "separate series" thing exists in Ottawa as well. Certainly overlaying a 2 in front of whatever the main route along that corridor makes sense too, that way people only really have to remember 1 number (the parent route number). The 2 in front just indicates the service type.

 

[reaperexpress]

Thanks for the constructive comments, guys!

I'd actually extend a few of those routes further south. In particular, the 235 Jane via Parkside and Exhibition and the 225 via Lakeshore Blvd. I could also easily see express bus routes on Brown's Line and Islington in the west. Despite the excess road capacity, from personal experience taking transit from southern Etobicoke to anywhere is a pain.

Actually in an earlier version of this map I did have route 235 extended to Exhibition via Parkside, but I cut it back because I fear such a long route would have reliability problems. The same would apply to the 225 in the east.

I also left out the pre-DRL routes thinking that the roads would be a complete mess once DRL construction begins and it would be disingenuous to those label routes as rockets.

I'm aware of the transit situation in southern Etobicoke, I commuted to Humber College Lakeshore Campus a few years back. But I wasn't sure if we can support both rocket and regular service on most of the north-south routes. I figure it's better to have 10-minute local service than 15 minute express and 20 minute local service. I used to take the Kipling bus and it was fairly fast anyway.

It's my hope that express bus routes would be implemented as a precursor to some variety of higher-order transit; at the very least queue jump lanes and signal priority. In some cases, these routes would act as precursors to LRT or Subway.

Absolutely. Finch East already has TSP, and Jane might (can't remember) but this could be a driving factor to install it on the other routes.

1) Extend the Airport Rocket and Highway 27 Rocket to Long Branch. This would make it infinitely easier for people from the west end of the GTA to have a 1 transfer ride to Pearson. Currently, the options to get to Pearson by transit from places like Oakville and Burlington are lacking, to say the least. Lakeshore GO + Airport Rocket makes it really easy.

That's a trip pattern that hadn't occurred to me. Maybe we could support a Rocket route after all. But if it's an extension of the 192/200 then you end up backtracking west after going east to Kipling. Conversely if it's a separate direct route, then it really seems more in GO's territory.

2) I noticed that the Beaches Express isn't included on this map. Omission? Or was there a rationale behind it being dropped?

3) I would also add a Lakeshore West Rocket. Getting to Long Branch using the TTC is painfully slow, especially if you're starting from downtown (Queen St crawls). Having a Lakeshore Express route (E+W) would help a lot I think.

The Beaches Express is a 140-series premium-fare commuter express route, which is quite different from a rocket route. I had no intention to remove it or the other downtown express bus routes.

Regarding the Beaches and southern Etobicoke, I had a crazy thought yesterday: what if we make the Queen streetcar a rocket route?? We can't run rocket bus services on streetcar routes because it's pretty much impossible to overtake a stopped streetcar. But a streetcar could overtake a stopped bus. So we would ran some parallel bus routes along Queen/Lakeshore, and where service is overlapped, the streetcar would make limited stops. For example:
- new local bus route from Dundas West or Lansdowne along Queen and up Kingston (Queen streetcar makes all stops east of Kingston).
- extend route 66 Park Lawn and 76 Royal York to Humber Lakeshore loop, and route 44 Kipling to Long Branch

I'll make a map of that this weekend if I feel like it.

4) Something along Wilson/York Mills may also be warranted.

Yeah, and along Steeles East and West, and probably Victoria Park too. I took them off the map simply because this version looks so much neater and thereby does a better job of conveying the point of the network.

 

[gweed123]

That's a trip pattern that hadn't occurred to me. Maybe we could support a Rocket route after all. But if it's an extension of the 192/200 then you end up backtracking west after going east to Kipling. Conversely if it's a separate direct route, then it really seems more in GO's territory.

That's true. GO coaches may be inefficient for this type of route though, because it's still a pretty short trip. The backtrack at Kipling may add to the trip length, but most people will still be taking the rocket to and from Kipling anyway. However, for those who do want to get on at Long Branch, it's still a heck of a lot more convenient to take a minor detour to Kipling than to deal with the current transit situation to get to Pearson from the west.

The Beaches Express is a 140-series premium-fare commuter express route, which is quite different from a rocket route. I had no intention to remove it or the other downtown express bus routes.

That's true, but I can see the Beaches people potentially getting upset that they're paying a premium fare for an express service when all of these other people are getting the same type of service for the standard TTC fare.

Regarding the Beaches and southern Etobicoke, I had a crazy thought yesterday: what if we make the Queen streetcar a rocket route?? We can't run rocket bus services on streetcar routes because it's pretty much impossible to overtake a stopped streetcar. But a streetcar could overtake a stopped bus. So we would ran some parallel bus routes along Queen/Lakeshore, and where service is overlapped, the streetcar would make limited stops. For example:
- new local bus route from Dundas West or Lansdowne along Queen and up Kingston (Queen streetcar makes all stops east of Kingston).
- extend route 66 Park Lawn and 76 Royal York to Humber Lakeshore loop, and route 44 Kipling to Long Branch

I'll make a map of that this weekend if I feel like it.

That's a pretty interesting idea! I would initially introduce that as a rush hour only service, and then if it worked well introduce it midday and evenings as well. I'm sure it would speed things up substantially for the people who are using Queen just to get downtown, and are coming from west of Roncesvalles. I would definitely like to see what you come up with for that.

Yeah, and along Steeles East and West, and probably Victoria Park too. I took them off the map simply because this version looks so much neater and thereby does a better job of conveying the point of the network.

Very true.

 

[reaperexpress]

That's true. GO coaches may be inefficient for this type of route though, because it's still a pretty short trip. The backtrack at Kipling may add to the trip length, but most people will still be taking the rocket to and from Kipling anyway. However, for those who do want to get on at Long Branch, it's still a heck of a lot more convenient to take a minor detour to Kipling than to deal with the current transit situation to get to Pearson from the west.

I wonder if it would be worthwhile for GO to order some Alexander Dennis Enviro500s with two sets of doors for use on short-haul trips such as:
- Pearson Airport - Long Branch
- Pearson Airport - Bramalea, Malton and/or Etobicoke North
- Hamilton James - Hamilton Centre.

That's true, but I can see the Beaches people potentially getting upset that they're paying a premium fare for an express service when all of these other people are getting the same type of service for the standard TTC fare.

Yeah, the premium express routes have always seemed a bit strange to me. My rationalization is that the areas served are pretty high-income and they capitalize on the direct-to-downtown aspect that rocket routes lack. Furthermore, they tend to be sectional-express in contrast to the limited-express rocket routes.

 

[wopchop]

Regarding the Beaches and southern Etobicoke, I had a crazy thought yesterday: what if we make the Queen streetcar a rocket route?? We can't run rocket bus services on streetcar routes because it's pretty much impossible to overtake a stopped streetcar. But a streetcar could overtake a stopped bus. So we would ran some parallel bus routes along Queen/Lakeshore, and where service is overlapped, the streetcar would make limited stops. For example:
- new local bus route from Dundas West or Lansdowne along Queen and up Kingston (Queen streetcar makes all stops east of Kingston).
- extend route 66 Park Lawn and 76 Royal York to Humber Lakeshore loop, and route 44 Kipling to Long Branch

I'll make a map of that this weekend if I feel like it.

This is an interesting idea, and I think I like it. One issue might be that the 501 along Lakeshore West does not have it's own ROW. I find that it is often stopped or delayed due to left turning cars. Could be an issue for an express streetcar service.