Transit City Plan

[Dan416]

I would like it to go to the airport too but the Eglinton LRT as proposed accessed the airport in the least beneficial way and wasn't funded to the airport in any case. Rarely did Councillor Walker make a stand on something I agreed with but his attempt to correct the route was something I fully supported. The Mississauga BRT should go to Kipling via the hydro corridor and the subway/LRT should go to the subway via Dixon between 27 and Pearson.

I agree the route the TTC chose to the airport was too indirect, but I think your routing takes it too far off Eglinton. I'd keep it on Eglinton to Renforth and then just turn it north, and then along Silver Dart into the airport.

 

[Ed Drass]

Royson James on Eglinton compromise http://v.gd/Star3 and
Two snips from Post pieces:

The TTC has been told to go back to the drawing board and come up with a new transit map that includes subways instead of surface light-rail. The current plan by Metrolinx, the regional transportation agency, would see light rail on Finch, Eglinton, Sheppard and the Scarborough RT.

"I campaigned on subways. I was very clear in my message. I never deviated from my message. I said after what happened with St. Clair, which I call Transit City 101, we're not going to have 102 or 103. I said we're going to build subways and we are going to build subways," said Mr. Ford. "Whatever terminology you would use, streetcars, LRTs, Sheppard Avenue, Eglinton, it's all going underground. I'm trying to be as clear as possible," said Mr. Ford. He campaigned to extend the Sheppard subway and turn the RT into a subway.

His $3-billion price tag to tunnel along Sheppard alone appears, by preliminary TTC estimates, to be conservative. Either way, the province has made it clear that there is less than $3.1-billion available for transit expansion in Toronto, because some of the money has already been spent. During a stop in Toronto on Friday, the federal Conservatives dampened expectations of financial help from Ottawa. "Is there going to be new money for infrastructure in the next federal budget? I don't think so," said Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism Minister Jason Kenney.

Mr. Ford said he is not prepared to put city money into building subways now. "If we're $3-billion in debt, we're not going to go $4-billion in debt to build subways. It's not going to happen. I want to get our financial house in order and then we'll take it from there," he said. During the campaign, he touted development rights as a way to offset the cost of subway construction.

Funding questions aside, he is also counting on his colleagues--including a vocal crowd of councillors who dismiss the subway plan as "fairy dust" -- to come on side. Mr. Ford shrugs off the opposition. "It's not a vote against me, it's a vote against the taxpayer. It's a vote against the people who are saying they want subways," said Mr. Ford.

Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/Ford+that/3927496/story.html#ixzz179PTD8pf

And from "Chris Selley: Ford’s jarring bravado on transit"

Mr. Ford’s bravado is most jarring when it comes to transit. On Day One of his mayoralty, he promised Torontonians they’ll never see another metre of railway tracks at grade and recommitted to building out the Sheppard and Danforth subways to meet at Scarborough Town Centre.

“We’re not going to have any more surface rail. We’re not going to have any tracks above ground,” he told the Post. “Whatever terminology you want to use — streetcars, LRTs — it’s going underground. Sheppard Avenue, Eglinton. It’s all going underground.”

Clear enough — though there’s no money left for Eglinton, of course. But again, nobody doubted his sincerity on these fronts. Nobody would have minded if he’d asked TTC staff to cost the plan, booked an appointment with Premier Dalton McGuinty — who holds the purse strings — and asked us to stay tuned for the results.

Mr. Ford’s campaign costed his subway plan at $4-billion, $3.7-billion of which was to be repurposed Transit City funding from the province, with the rest to come from air rights and development fees. In fact, only around $3-billion of that was ever available, and at least $130-million of it has already been spent.

How much more taxpayer money is Mr. Ford willing to write off to bring Transit City to an end? “Shouldn’t have to write off any more,” he told the Post. “I told [TTC general manager] Gary [Webster] yesterday, I said, ‘That’s it.’ ”

Then, a caveat: “As you know, it wasn’t city money that was spent. I have to sit down with the Premier to see: Is he committed to more money I’m not aware of? I can’t speak on his behalf.”

It’s a giant question mark, in other words, which Mr. Ford has drawn over with a very wide exclamation point. Cancellation penalties for already-signed contracts are an unknown. On The John Oakley Show on Thursday, Mr. Ford suggested Bombardier would be happy to abandon the LRT project to build subway cars instead. And perhaps it might, if it was handed the contract outright — but if it was forced to bid competitively, which Mr. Ford has promised, why wouldn’t Bombardier pursue any reparations owed it?

However much less than $3-billion is in fact available to the city for subways, the province has made it quite clear that’s all there’s going to be. A recent TTC briefing document obtained by Post reporter Natalie Alcoba pegs the cost of the Sheppard subway expansion alone at $3.6-billion, plus up to $500-million for a new maintenance facility — and that doesn’t include Mr. Ford’s promise to extend the line west to Downsview station. The document pegs the cost of converting the Scarborough RT to a subway at an additional $3.1-billion. These plans differ somewhat from Mr. Ford’s, but all told that’s more than $4-billion more than he seems to have at his disposal!

Read more: http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/1...d’s-jarring-bravado-on-transit/#ixzz179Qzio4i

 

[lafard]

I think most of us would be a lot happier if we were talking about building on Eglinton and sacrificing Sheppard to pay for it, rather than the other way around.

I suspect Ford doesn't want to build Eglinton because it runs through several wards that not only didn't vote for him but also not for his pet councillors.

Eglinton might be dead simply because it runs through Joe Mihevc's ward. The primary local opponent, and "respect for taxpayers" candidate Posen, ran on cancelling it, comparing it to St Clair.

Any other political situation, such an accusation is firmly tinfoil hat territory, but with Ford it no longer seems that outlandish.

 

[drum118]

I would like it to go to the airport too but the Eglinton LRT as proposed accessed the airport in the least beneficial way and wasn't funded to the airport in any case. Rarely did Councillor Walker make a stand on something I agreed with but his attempt to correct the route was something I fully supported. The Mississauga BRT should go to Kipling via the hydro corridor and the subway/LRT should go to the subway via Dixon between 27 and Pearson.

During the EA in 2003-2004, I stated the the hydro corridor be used by both the BRT as well for TTC so TTC could provide better service to the north area, than it did then.

I even said this BRT should be LRT based on the numbers been used for ridership at that time, which happen to be for the full system GO was using after the EA eneded.

Putting the BRT on 427 was asking for delays and taking far longer than routes 3, 20, 26 and 86 driving in mix traffic.

I disagree with the current plan for Eglinton as it miss the ridership east of 27 as well costing more to get over 401 where it is plan to go now.

The Eglinton line needs to go to the airport that even the province saw this back in 2006 before the RTP was born.

 

[EnviroTO]

I agree the route the TTC chose to the airport was too indirect, but I think your routing takes it too far off Eglinton. I'd keep it on Eglinton to Renforth and then just turn it north, and then along Silver Dart into the airport.

The part of Eglinton from Renforth to Martin Grove would have BRT. Silver Dart has no development potential at all being runways on one side, freeways and height restrictions on the other. Meanwhile Dixon from the airport to 27 is all hotels, convention centres, and offices.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Rob Ford has this phobia for streetcars and light rail, because he cannot provide a reasonable logical explanation for his opposition. Similar to the phobias for the number 4 or number 13 some people have, no logic except that he does not want it. Even given him examples, explanations, and history lessons, he will not change his mind.

Better to go to the other councilors and talk with them.

 

[lafard]

I've posted this elsewhere, but here's my take on his dislike of streetcars:

Ford’s dislike of streetcars (and by extension LRT) is very simple.

We know he drives to work, although his route is not obvious we know from his infamous “it’s their own fault they get killed†diatribe against cyclists he regularly drives down Queen street.

Queen, as we all know, happens to be a very slow road to travel down no matter what the mode. It also has both mixed traffic streetcars, and many more cyclists than any other route he’d regularly travel down. He is simply blaming the slow traffic on the most obvious scapegoats. Of course, on-street parking is just as bad a culprit (and actually known to be one) but in his mind removing parking = war on car.

Of course, any urbanist knows that the slow traffic, heavy transit usage, and hoards of cyclists are a byproduct of the intense urbanity of Queen, College, Dundas, Gerrard and King, and even Bathurst – all three are parallel products rather than cause-and-effect of each other, his mindset is simply too black-and-white to grasp that. Meanwhile, University, Bay, Jarvis, Front, and the Richmond-Adeleide pair also lack in the requisite urbanity that leads to the traffic; but also lack streetcars while it’s a brave cyclist that ventures onto these urban highways.

Correlation is not causation, but in Ford’s mind the two are one and the same.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

I've posted this elsewhere, but here's my take on his dislike of streetcars:

Ford’s dislike of streetcars (and by extension LRT) is very simple.

We know he drives to work, although his route is not obvious we know from his infamous “it’s their own fault they get killed” diatribe against cyclists he regularly drives down Queen street.

Queen, as we all know, happens to be a very slow road to travel down no matter what the mode. It also has both mixed traffic streetcars, and many more cyclists than any other route he’d regularly travel down. He is simply blaming the slow traffic on the most obvious scapegoats. Of course, on-street parking is just as bad a culprit (and actually known to be one) but in his mind removing parking = war on car.

Of course, any urbanist knows that the slow traffic, heavy transit usage, and hoards of cyclists are a byproduct of the intense urbanity of Queen, College, Dundas, Gerrard and King, and even Bathurst – all three are parallel products rather than cause-and-effect of each other, his mindset is simply too black-and-white to grasp that. Meanwhile, University, Bay, Jarvis, Front, and the Richmond-Adeleide pair also lack in the requisite urbanity that leads to the traffic; but also lack streetcars while it’s a brave cyclist that ventures onto these urban highways.

Correlation is not causation, but in Ford’s mind the two are one and the same.

I'm going to get straight to the point here:

Naive solution for a naive mind.

 

[spider]

We know he drives to work, although his route is not obvious we know from his infamous “it’s their own fault they get killed” diatribe against cyclists he regularly drives down Queen street.

You are comfortable with this agenda justifying Queen Street assumption and expect rational people to agree with anything else you have to say?

... his mindset is simply too black-and-white to grasp that.

Talk about black & white.

 

[Electrify]

For better or worse, I think Transit City is going to go ahead. Ford's unwillingness to compromise on design means that the province is going to go ahead with the plan as is, and are going to say tough luck to Ford. I could even see them turning Sheppard and Eglinton into provincial highways/roads and operating the line under GO Transit to get around any legal red tape that may get in their way. The province is supposed to be footing the bill and have already spent good money, they don't want to see it go to waste.

This is a shame because as all but the most die hard critics agree that there is room to compromise. Spacing out stops and running parallel bus service, improving transfers, converting the existing subway to LRT, route modifications, etc. These are all perfectly acceptable changes which could have given north Scarborough fast and reliable transit while appeasing drivers' concerns. However Ford's stubbornness is going to ensure that Scarborough either gets poor transit or no transit.

This guy's been in office for 3 days and he's already one of the worst mayors Toronto's ever had!

 

[Asterix]

For better or worse, I think Transit City is going to go ahead. Ford's unwillingness to compromise on design means that the province is going to go ahead with the plan as is, and are going to say tough luck to Ford. I could even see them turning Sheppard and Eglinton into provincial highways/roads and operating the line under GO Transit to get around any legal red tape that may get in their way. The province is supposed to be footing the bill and have already spent good money, they don't want to see it go to waste.

While I'd really like to believe that, I just don't see how that belief can be justified.

Is there any precedence for the province arbitrarily turning municipal arteries into provincial highways? How about having GO operate a rapid transit line that is supposed to be a part of a different transit system?

What basis do you have to think that in their current precarious position, the province would be wanting to get in a pissing match with a newly elected Mayor of the biggest city? It would be a lot easier (and beneficial to them politically) to tell Ford:

"You want to switch horses mid-stream? Ok, here's a bill for $130 million for the work we've already done. Here's a bill for $X million for breaking the contracts we've signed. And here is the $3.1 billion minus those two previous bills that you can now figure out how to use to provide quality transit throughout your entire city. Have fun. Please don't call again."

They've basically got their backs covered, Ford will be the prime target to take the heat for wasted millions and for ending up with minimal new transit for the city.

Ford has dug himself a good hole. We know he can't build much subway with the funds he'll have left and he won't be able to have anything ready for service before the next election. Yet he came out so strongly so fast that TC was dead and a whole new 'plan' (plan to be determined) was in play, that combined with his bull-headedness, will make it next to impossible for him to compromise on anything, even if it were to be beneficial to his electorate.

Even if the TTC were to come back in six weeks with a proposal that easily demonstrates how much more cost effective the current TC plan is and how ridiculously unachievable the 'subways here, there and everywhere' plan is, I fear the new Mayor will take the 'it's too expensive, so we can't build it now' option and nothing will get done (short of more waste to deconstruct the work already done on Sheppard).

 

[Electrify]

While I'd really like to believe that, I just don't see how that belief can be justified.

Is there any precedence for the province arbitrarily turning municipal arteries into provincial highways? How about having GO operate a rapid transit line that is supposed to be a part of a different transit system?

What basis do you have to think that in their current precarious position, the province would be wanting to get in a pissing match with a newly elected Mayor of the biggest city? It would be a lot easier (and beneficial to them politically) to tell Ford:

"You want to switch horses mid-stream? Ok, here's a bill for $130 million for the work we've already done. Here's a bill for $X million for breaking the contracts we've signed. And here is the $3.1 billion minus those two previous bills that you can now figure out how to use to provide quality transit throughout your entire city. Have fun. Please don't call again."

They've basically got their backs covered, Ford will be the prime target to take the heat for wasted millions and for ending up with minimal new transit for the city.

Ford has dug himself a good hole. We know he can't build much subway with the funds he'll have left and he won't be able to have anything ready for service before the next election. Yet he came out so strongly so fast that TC was dead and a whole new 'plan' (plan to be determined) was in play, that combined with his bull-headedness, will make it next to impossible for him to compromise on anything, even if it were to be beneficial to his electorate.

Even if the TTC were to come back in six weeks with a proposal that easily demonstrates how much more cost effective the current TC plan is and how ridiculously unachievable the 'subways here, there and everywhere' plan is, I fear the new Mayor will take the 'it's too expensive, so we can't build it now' option and nothing will get done (short of more waste to deconstruct the work already done on Sheppard).

Hate to say it... but that is more realistic. Hell, I could see them not give Toronto a dime, and just ask/sue the city for the money already spent.

Makes you wonder if Ford expects to balance the books without raising any taxes this year by using the money earmarked for transit. And if the province decides to keep that money instead...

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if he resigns after a year. He'll leave this city on the verge of bankruptcy, and absolutely no transportation plan or funding - even though he won an election where the #1 concern was transportation.

 

[MetroMan]

^ I don't think he'd resign but he is definitely setting himself up into a corner to be a lame duck Mayor from the very first session of council. Declaring war on the progressives in council and threatening the Premier by making statements to the effect that Dalton won't be re-elected anyway, shows that Rob Ford is just being Rob Ford. He's never made any friends on city council in 10 years as councillor and he's not looking to start now.

In the past that has meant that he's never accomplished any of his proposals. He may have more leverage as Mayor in the form of executive appointments and setting the topics of discussion but that won't get him all the way through, specially with constituents lighting fire under their councillors' asses when services begin to get cut. I can't imagine anybody being a successful Mayor with an ever growing crowd of enemies around him.

Because Ford has picked this fight, discussion on Transit City is not going away for months -- if not years -- so it will very much be a part of the provincial election. This can only benefit Toronto. Either Dalton is re-elected on promises to continue funding Transit City and Ford's own "The People have spoken" argument is used against him, or Hudak if he wants to become Premier, will have to win ridings in Toronto so he'll have to compete, perhaps offering Ford money to build his subways. Either way, we're getting transit. The money is not going to disappear before the election.

Doug and Kouvalis are supposedly the thinkers here and the only reason why Ford was able to win. They'll be looking to get him out of this mess and the only way is to compromise. Eglinton + SRT conversion to subway as suggested is probably what we'll get. No delay on Eglinton is the only way Ford will have progress to show by the next election. His twin and attack dog will surely advise him of this.

 

[Electrify]

^ Worth mentioning too is that one argument against Transit City is that the people didn't get a chance to vote for it. Yet MoveOntario2020, including Transit City, was part of the Liberal's platform in the last election and they won a majority. More to the point, the ridings where Transit City would operate unanimously voted Liberal.

With that said, one could argue that the people who initially supported Transit City became disenfranchised with it the more they learned about it...

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse.

As numerous threads in this forum have pointed out Toronto expenditures on transport infrastructure compare very poorly with comparable projects elsewhere. Now a precedent is being set for a further quantum drop in cost-effectiveness.

Once we get into the full cycle of studies, project approvals, allocation of funds, awarding of contracts with penalty clauses, cancellations, start all over again, it should be possible to burn through hundreds of millions with absolutely nothing to show for it.

Each time a new mayor takes over it can be as nothing was ever agreed before.

In the meantime municipal politicians can argue over the allowable expenses for councillors as if that was the major issue before us.

Give me a reason to be positive about the future of Toronto. The fact that one can have an ethnic meal from a hundred different countries doesn't quite do it for me.

Quite simply why are you choosing to raise the issue now. There was network 2011, RTES, etc, etc that were virtually tossed into the dumpster when Miller proposed Transit City (and it was Miller, not the TTC as previously to proposed it). You can argue that funding was not there however I have yet to see a report where senior governments told the city "here's $18 million spend it how you wish", in fact the $18 million plan came before the funding so therefore the city could have proposed whatever it wished.