Transit City Plan

[ssiguy2]

I hope you are right with a much increased distance between the stops. Not only will it make the system considerably faster but much more reliable. The more stops and the more lights it has to deal with, the lower the intersection priority can be. That leads to unreliable service and the thing that Torontonians hate the most, the bunching ogf the trains.

You simply cannot have that many stops, that many lights, that many advanced greens, and that many trains and have signal priority..........a complete impossiblity. Vancouver's BLine stops only at connecting bus route intersections with the exception of major destinations suchas Vancouver Community College. Same should be done for TC.

I have always stated from day #1 that TC could work. It was the implementation that they got wrond not the idea behind it.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

In fairness, I am somewhat surprised they built so many stations so close together. Even in Manhattan most stops end up being about 600m apart. Considering the time taken to go underground and back up, and that College was considered the northern boundary of downtown in the 40s and 50s, I'm surprised that stops like King, Dundas, Wellsley, and Rosedale made the cut.

Maybe because the planners understood ACCESSIBILITY is just as important as vehicle speed?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Maybe because the planners understood ACCESSIBILITY is just as important as vehicle speed?

JayBeeGooner, these stations aren't going to be miles apart. We're talking 1km or maybe a little more. That isn't inaccessible at all. It means that if you live or work along Finch or Sheppard, you're no more than a 4 - 6 minute (500m) walk away from a station. That 500m radius coves a huge amount of people, especially because of the high-rises along Finch and Sheppard.

It really doesn't make sense to add additional stops along the route so people can shave a few minutes off their already short walking time. The slower average speed of the LRVs will almost certainly cause a net gain in trip time.

 

[BurlOak]

Stopping every 2 to 3 blocks seems like a worst case scenario. I'm hoping that Metrolinx and Toronto will eliminate quite a few intersections if it will not harm traffic flow too badly. Ideally residential intersections with low traffic along Sheppard and Finch can be eliminated. This would mean that stoplights would be 0.8 - 1km apart and in the worst case scenario drivers would have to travel 500m to make a U-turn around the ROW. Drivers will complain but stopping an LRVs with 200+ riders so a few cars can pass through an intersection doesn't make much sense.

Considering that Eglinton LRT has 15 intersections in the 5km in-median portion for an average of about 350m, I do not expect any changes to the FWLRT or SELRT stops - although I suppose you can still hope!

 

[JayBeeGooner]

JayBeeGooner, these stations aren't going to be miles apart. We're talking 1km or maybe a little more. That isn't inaccessible at all. It means that if you live or work along Finch or Sheppard, you're no more than a 4 - 6 minute (500m) walk away from a station. That 500m radius coves a huge amount of people, especially because of the high-rises along Finch and Sheppard.

It really doesn't make sense to add additional stops along the route so people can shave a few minutes off their already short walking time. The slower average speed of the LRVs will almost certainly cause a net gain in trip time.

Accessible for someone like me who is pretty damn healthy, and enjoys a good walk. How about the senior citizen, the mother/father with 2 kids, the average canadian worker who doesn't really want to walk 500m to a stop just to satisfy a few long distance point to point riders. The obsession with speed, and wide stop fails to consider the dwell time at stations is usually less than 20 sec. Taking away stops will not result in considerable time savings for a rider. More stops means MORE RIDERS. It's really simple to understand. Who benefits from less stops? The few riders going from terminal to terminal. You ignore many the more riders who live ALONG the route to satisfy the few going terminal to terminal. It;s why the Sheppard Subway is a failure. Access to the intermediate stops is really hard, so everyone drives.

Building a network around long distance travel like you and Ssiguy2 want will not attract riders, and create livable communities. Even Jennifer Keesmat acknowledged this. It's about accessibilty, and that means building stops and making it easy for people to access. Not stop 1-2km away.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Accessible for someone like me who is pretty damn healthy, and enjoys a good walk. How about the senior citizen, the mother/father with 2 kids, the average canadian worker who doesn't really want to walk 500m to a stop just to satisfy a few long distance point to point riders.

Unfortunately we cannot build are transit for the lowest common denominator. Most people are able bodied individuals able to walk 500m in a few minutes. That is who we must cater to.

It;s why the Sheppard Subway is a failure.

I can guarantee you that if the Sheppard Subway had stops every 400m the line would still be a failure.

Building a network around long distance travel like you and Ssiguy2 want will not attract riders, and create livable communities.

What attracts riders is getting them to where they want to go quickly and reliably. What you suggest wouldn't do that.

Sheppard Ave East isn't exactly Queen Street with an abundance of shops and a vibrant street life. East of Kennedy It's row after row of apartment block with a stip mall at every major intersection. And west of Kennedy it's row after row of strip mall with few residential areas. Riders really have no choice but to make long distance trips to get to shopping or employment areas. Even if we had stations 400m apart, most people would still be travelling long distance. 0.8km-1km spacing with a station at every major intersection is the right thing to do for this area.

 

[Electrify]

Maybe because the planners understood ACCESSIBILITY is just as important as vehicle speed?

If accessibility was such a concern, how come elevators or ramps were not installed?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If accessibility was such a concern, how come elevators or ramps were not installed?

I think JayBeeGooner was talking about accessibility in terms of walking distance from the station and not whether or not people with disabilities could get into the station.

But to answer your question, it's probably because nobody gave a damn about accessibility back then. Only recently have we gotten accessibility laws in Ontario.

 

[Electrify]

Perhaps, but most people who cannot walk more than a few hundred metres have severe difficulty with stairs. Seems silly to have stops very close together in the name of "accessibility," then to not have them accessible.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Perhaps, but most people who cannot walk more than a few hundred metres have severe difficulty with stairs. Seems silly to have stops very close together in the name of "accessibility," then to not have them accessible.

No matter how you look at it JayBeeGooner's accessibility argument is silly. This is the only time I've heard someone complain that 500m is too far to walk.

 

[sixrings]

I would think one way to decides stops is based on major intersections. Another possibility would be at traffic lights. That assumes traffic lights are installed only at important cross roads. Either way the accessability argument is very difficult for myself to buy. AGAIN when I lived at midland and huntingwood I could have taken the midland bus to the RT to get downtown or I could walk to Finch and grab the express.. The express everytime was faster and I never minded the walk. I mentioned in another thread that I work at a food bank at runnymede and annette street. I KNOW this is not going to be believable BUT I know one man whose at least 55 who walks from YONGE and Sheppard every week to have a dinner and to get some groceries. Another man easily in his 60s walks from roncesvalle. If these people can do it then I am sure the average citizen can. Also everytime I go to NYC and I stay in queens at a Aunts house the walk is at least 10-15 minutes away. If that was Toronto people would be waiting outside their apartment for the bus to bring them to the subway. But in NYC the bus rarely comes and people just walk it without complaint it seems, BTW the subway station in Astoria doesnt even have a elevator, do any new york stations? It seems like some people are suggeesting that those who believe in longer stop spacing are cold hearted individuals. That isnt necessarily the case. Maybe we just have had different experiences.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

No matter how you look at it JayBeeGooner's accessibility argument is silly. This is the only time I've heard someone complain that 500m is too far to walk.

My accesibility argument is silly? Really? I am in the majority, actually.

http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-story/71229-colle-pushes-for-lrt-station-at-oakwood/

Josh Colle pushes for a Oakwood stop after petition from local resident demand a stop.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...fight_to_put_leslie_stop_back_on_the_map.html

Resident fight to put Ferrand stop back.

My accessibility argument is quite valid, it's your argument that 500m isn't far that is silly. Like it or, not 500m is a pretty fair distance for many riders. It's why you hear stories of resident petitioning to put stops back in, and planners saying we should be building transit for livable communities, and not primarily for the quickest vehicle speed. You guys always ignore the total travel time from door to door, and just shrug it off by saying "x-distance isn't far, people are just lazy". when someone brings it up. Like it not or, it far by many people, and to focus solely on terminal to terminal riders is just wrong.

You need a good compromise between accessibility, and speed. Transit should be fast, but not at the expense of accesibilty, so the spacing for each corridor may be different. It's crazy to say we should make the station on every single transit route 1km apart, and that's it. I'm not a planner, but even I know that's just lazy planning.

I forgot to mention, the TC lines are going to have less stops than the current bus routes, which is a speed improvement in itself.

 

[DKsan]

500 metres seems to be the standard for build at least local transit, and it's the standard radius they use for how long people will walk to a transit station.

That is at least after perusing the transit planning documents of several municipalities in Canada, from small to big.

And yeah, there's the world, but each nation, there's a different context available.

 

[car4041]

In fairness, I am somewhat surprised they built so many stations so close together. Even in Manhattan most stops end up being about 600m apart. Considering the time taken to go underground and back up, and that College was considered the northern boundary of downtown in the 40s and 50s, I'm surprised that stops like King, Dundas, Wellsley, and Rosedale made the cut.

Hang on, am I reading this right? You're surprised that King, Dundas, and Wellesley stations exist? Each of those stations is a transfer point for a busy surface route, and not having them would make the downtown transit network completely dysfunctional. The extremely high usage of King and Dundas stations suggests that building them was indeed the right decision.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

My accessibility argument is quite valid, it's your argument that 500m isn't far that is silly. Like it or, not 500m is a pretty fair distance for many riders.

It's a good thing that almost nobody riding the Sheppard or Finch LRTs will have to walk 500m along Finch or Sheppard. The median walking distance is 250m. The average human can walk approximately 1.4 metres per second. That means that the median walking time to stations along Sheppard/Finch will be 178 seconds. Do you really think 178 seconds is too long of a walk?

I forgot to mention, the TC lines are going to have less stops than the current bus routes, which is a speed improvement in itself.

Hardly. The TC lines are "rapid transit". The spacing between stations should be far beyond that of bus stop spacing. I've been in cities where their busses stop less often than the TC "rapid transit" lines.