Transit City Plan

[JayBeeGooner]

It's a good thing that almost nobody riding the Sheppard or Finch LRTs will have to walk 500m along Finch or Sheppard. The median walking distance is 250m. The average human can walk approximately 1.4 metres per second. That means that the median walking time to stations along Sheppard/Finch will be 178 seconds. Do you really think 178 seconds is too long of a walk?

It's 350 sec(250*1.4). You just made up some number. 350 secs is 5.5minutes.

Hardly. The TC lines are "rapid transit". The spacing between stations should be far beyond that of bus stop spacing. I've been in cities where their busses stop less often than the TC "rapid transit" lines.

That's awesome. The projected 65,000 riders will think otherwise. And I've been to cities where the stop spacing is 300-400 metres, and every stop is heavily used. Again, stop spacing determined by demand. Not some arbitrary definition of rapid transit.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It's 350 sec(250*1.4). You just made up some number. 350 secs is 5.5minutes.

No. We are trying to calculate the difference in time given the speed and displacement. The equation for that is t=d/v, where the variable "T" represents time, "d" displacement and "v" speed. Since d=250 and v=1.4, the equation becomes t= 250/1.4. The solution to that is 179.

The calculation can be found here:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=how+long+to+walk+250m+at+1.4+meters+per+second

 

[ssiguy2]

Vancouver's fast BLines have a good rule to go by.................it only stops at bus interchange intersections. As far as they are concerned if a street is not important enough to have a bus route going down it then it's not important enough to have a rapid transit stop.

There can of course be exceptions like stops for colleges, large employment areas, or very high density areas but in general it's a good rule to go by. If the TTC wants stops every 2 to 3 blocks for "great city building" and "complete communities" then they are over stepping their boundaries. The ONLY thing the TTC should be concerned about is public transit and more importantly that is the only mandate they have. If this other stuff comes into play then so be it but that still leaves these same areas without access to rapid transit.

There is a reason why no other city on the planet as stops every 2 to 3 blocks, stops at every light, waits for advanced green lights and has no proper true rail crossings for it's supposed rapid transit trains.................it doesn't work. If it did work then every city on the planet would do it but no city has and at the same time called it rapid transit. Toronto hasn't "discovered" some new form of rapid transit that the rest of the planet has figured out yet but rather has blurred the lines between rapid and improved transit.

Torontonians are going to be very disappointed when Sheppard and Finch are completed and find out that after spending billion, having to suffer thru years of construction, and being told rapid transit is coming that there commute isn't any shorter than it was before.

 

[drum118]

Vancouver's fast BLines have a good rule to go by.................it only stops at bus interchange intersections. As far as they are concerned if a street is not important enough to have a bus route going down it then it's not important enough to have a rapid transit stop.

There can of course be exceptions like stops for colleges, large employment areas, or very high density areas but in general it's a good rule to go by. If the TTC wants stops every 2 to 3 blocks for "great city building" and "complete communities" then they are over stepping their boundaries. The ONLY thing the TTC should be concerned about is public transit and more importantly that is the only mandate they have. If this other stuff comes into play then so be it but that still leaves these same areas without access to rapid transit.

There is a reason why no other city on the planet as stops every 2 to 3 blocks, stops at every light, waits for advanced green lights and has no proper true rail crossings for it's supposed rapid transit trains.................it doesn't work. If it did work then every city on the planet would do it but no city has and at the same time called it rapid transit. Toronto hasn't "discovered" some new form of rapid transit that the rest of the planet has figured out yet but rather has blurred the lines between rapid and improved transit.

Torontonians are going to be very disappointed when Sheppard and Finch are completed and find out that after spending billion, having to suffer thru years of construction, and being told rapid transit is coming that there commute isn't any shorter than it was before.

Boy you sure know how to use a paint brush on other cities around the world when you are wrong in the first place.

Traffic light and stop sign are far apart compare to NA to the point 95% of existing NA stop signs would never show up in Europe as how we use them.

Need to ride the T3 line in Paris or Nice France to see how close stops are while traveling at the speed limit. Speed is not main factor for surface transit. Even the Rapid Lines fail to match our speed.

You need to take a world trip this summer and visit the cities I saw last year to see how wrong you are.

I agree NA stop spacing, especially TTC are too close and should be 350-500m as well matching connection or heavy point loads.

 

[diminutive]

For a corridor like Sheppard I think ~800m is appropriate. That's basically a station at major intersections until McCowan. Assuming 400m walking radius from stations that would give coverage like this.

If you added midblock stops coverage would increase a bit, but there would be large overlaps.

I think it becomes clear that the marginal coverage of adding more stops diminishes pretty rapidly. Adding back midblock stops really doesn't add much new coverage. Especially since in many cases the screwy suburban road network results in nothing being in these coverage gaps. A stop at Bay Mills Rd. for instance would only add coverage for what looks like a few dozen homes.

Unless there is a significant transit destination mid-block 800m spacing seems appropriate and offers the most coverage/number of stops.

The issue with suburban stop coverage is really the longitudinal distance between major routes. Between Sheppard and Finch there are a lot of people who aren't close to transit simply because there's no service between Sheppard and Finch. Adding more stops won't fix that.

 

[BurlOak]

My accesibility argument is silly? Really? I am in the majority, actually.

http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-story/71229-colle-pushes-for-lrt-station-at-oakwood/

Josh Colle pushes for a Oakwood stop after petition from local resident demand a stop.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...fight_to_put_leslie_stop_back_on_the_map.html

Resident fight to put Ferrand stop back.

I think everyone wants stops as close as possible in front of their house, but then with far spacing along the route to their destination - then close again at the destination. The thing is that I do not see the residents of Leaside (Bayview, Laird) or Scarborough (Vic Park to Kennedy) asking for a stop at Ferrand. It is the expectation that residents will want a stop in front of their door, and it is the job of a Councillor to assist then in this goal. But collectively, it should be the role of City Hall to create rapid transit that benefits the entire City.

 

[BurlOak]

It's a good thing that almost nobody riding the Sheppard or Finch LRTs will have to walk 500m along Finch or Sheppard. The median walking distance is 250m. The average human can walk approximately 1.4 metres per second. That means that the median walking time to stations along Sheppard/Finch will be 178 seconds. Do you really think 178 seconds is too long of a walk?

Since much of the transit use is due to transfers, a significantly higher number of people board at major intersections, and only have to walk a few metres to board the train. Also, the major intersections typically have the larger concentration of high density housing and these passengers probably have to walk less than 100m to board the train. These two group significantly outnumber those who live mid-block. I would guess that the maximum walk would be 500m (actually more since people do not live right on the main road, but as stated elsewhere, the density drop significantly away from the arterial road). The median walk is probably those that live within 100m of the major intersection, or maybe even those transfering by bus at the major intersection.

 

[nfitz]

The 800 metre spacing looks about right. Though the occasional mid-block stop would be in order - for example at Agincourt GO station.

 

[nhui06]

The reason why I am hesitant to do Palmdale is because of the wildcard that Pharmacy is.

On one hand it is 800m away from Warden, and it is perceived as a collector road, so it seems like a no brainer to have a stop there.

On the other hand, because it is only 1.2km between Warden and Victoria Park rather than 1.6-2.0km, it is only 400m away from Victoria Park. And going 1.2 km without a stop is well within the range of rapid transit stop spacing.

I think at this point, they should put provisions in place for a stop, but skip it until there is more growth around the intersection or if Warden and Victoria Park become overburdened.

That said, there is no reason for Palmdale to have a rapid transit stop.

Palmdale is the baffling station. It is literally a 3 minute walk to Warden station. They have an apartment there with a Red Lobster, and a small office plaza. Stop really should be eliminated.

Frankly I think Sheppard is better served with a BRT. Use the savings to add to the DRL if needed. A BRT will justify having so many stops. It will also allow for the spur route to Scarborough Town Center to continue (popular route). Use those new long buses that TTC is purchasing and it should be fine.

If we do use a LRT, here are my stop suggestions
- Don Mills
- Consumer Road
- Victoria Park
- Pharmacy
- Warden (no more Palmdale)
- Bay Mills (It is close to Warden, but serves a few apartments and townhome complexes)
- Birchmount
- Allanford (serves a senior home and Agincourt mall)
- Kennedy
- Go Agincourt
- Midland
- Brimley
- Brownspring (close to Mccowan, but needs a stop between Brimley and McCowan since there are a few plazas here)
- McCowan
- Shorting Road (remove White Haven- these people can easily walk to McCowan)
- Markham Road (remove Massie)
- Progress Ave
- Washburn (remove Burrows Hall)
- Neilson
- Murison
- Breynon Way
- Morningside.

 

[bleu]

How about the senior citizen, the mother/father with 2 kids, the average canadian worker who doesn't really want to walk 500m to a stop just to satisfy a few long distance point to point riders.

Here we go again. Seniors, pregant women, parents with kids. The world is supposed to circle around their needs.
In any case, 500M is not excessive. There needs to be a balance between speed and your so-called accesibility. Otherwise why not stop every 50 meters, I am sure those seniors and dads with two kids prefer walking 50M to 250M too. Wouldn't that be nice? How can we be so cold to ask seniors to walk for 3 minutes, they might fall.

Shorter distance between stops provide some benefit of course, but it also comes at a cost in terms both money and time, and there needs to be a balance. If one simply refuses to walk 400-500 meters, probably he shouldn't bother going out at all. Don't want to walk a sheet 3 minutes, you might as well just call a cab, which will pick you up at your doorstop.

I would say in the core area, stops of 300-400M are reasonable. Outside in the suburbs, 800M is about right.
Looking around the world, there are no cities which build transit stops with consistent very short distance. Not Paris or Manhattan. No even in Asian cities where density is extremely high.

 

[nfitz]

I would say in the core area, stops of 300-400M are reasonable. Outside in the suburbs, 800M is about right.
Looking around the world, there are no cities which build transit stops with consistent very short distance. Not Paris or Manhattan.

What do you mean? There are subway lines in Manhattan with stops every 400 metres.

And Paris?? I was surprised riding the Metro in Paris how close together the stops were ... and checking Google maps, 400 metres or less is every common between stops. Let's pick a line. line 3. 11.7 km with 25 stations. So the average spacing is 488 metres. And that's average, like many lines, it's tighter in the centre, and spreads out a bit at the edges.

 

[bleu]

No matter how you look at it JayBeeGooner's accessibility argument is silly. This is the only time I've heard someone complain that 500m is too far to walk.

following his logic we should have a stop every 50 meters. Apparently it is simply too much to ask riders to walk for 5 minutes to a transit stop.

How many people are exactly too weak to walk for a sheer 5 minutes anyway? There are so many fat people in Toronto and I think it is good that they get to walk for a few minutes each day. In my work place, people actually would rather wait for the elevator to go from the 3rd floor to the 2nd, instead of taking a 30 seconds walk - don't get me wrong, those are perfectly healthy people in their 30s, 40s or 50s. They simply think walking 20 stairs is too strenuous. Expecting a stop within 2 minutes walking distance from transit is the same. We have to consider the overall efficiency.

 

[bleu]

What do you mean? There are subway lines in Manhattan with stops every 400 metres.

And Paris?? I was surprised riding the Metro in Paris how close together the stops were ... and checking Google maps, 400 metres or less is every common between stops. Let's pick a line. line 3. 11.7 km with 25 stations. So the average spacing is 488 metres. And that's average, like many lines, it's tighter in the centre, and spreads out a bit at the edges.

sure. But did you know Paris has a density 6 times that of Toronto? They build frequent stops because there are enough riders. Scarborough's density is about 15% of Paris, and sure, let's give them Paris style transit spacing.

 

[nfitz]

sure. But did you know Paris has a density 6 times that of Toronto? They build frequent stops because there are enough riders. Scarborough's density is about 15% of Paris, and sure, let's give them Paris style transit spacing.

I don't disagree with you about Scarborough. But your point was that they don't have stops that close in Paris or Manhattan, and not even you agree with yourself!

 

[diminutive]

What do you mean? There are subway lines in Manhattan with stops every 400 metres.

And Paris?? I was surprised riding the Metro in Paris how close together the stops were ... and checking Google maps, 400 metres or less is every common between stops. Let's pick a line. line 3. 11.7 km with 25 stations. So the average spacing is 488 metres. And that's average, like many lines, it's tighter in the centre, and spreads out a bit at the edges.

Maybe being a bit literal, but 'build' was in the present tense. It's mostly true that cities tend not to build such dense subways anymore. The SAS has over 1km station spacing. Paris' only post-WW2 subway line is over 1km spacing as well, and its RER is usually well over 1km.