Transit City Plan

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

So Dufferin and Bloor (Dufferin Mall) is suburbia I suppose? You mention how density focuses at nodes, how is this different than much of the Yonge line where density drops off away from the stations?
And those condos weren't there before the subway was there either...I'm not saying that Sheppard should get a subway because it is dense. I'm saying that if density was the only factor in regards to building a subway, then there is precedent to suggest that Sheppard is dense enough to support one.

Would you be so kind as to say clearly what you are advocating? I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're trying to weasel around to 'we should continue to have Sheppard underground.' If so, stop. Sheppard should never have been underground, and to compound the mistake would be egregious.

Dufferin Mall is a royal mistake. Yonge is the spine of the city, and, while you are technically correct that the condos came after the Yonge line, given the decades-long time gap, I'm going to go with 'sort-of correlation does not imply causation.'

Agincourt is a friggin' SUBURB.

 

[Electrify]

Don't forget Palmdale which is just 280m to the west of Warden.

The reason why I am hesitant to do Palmdale is because of the wildcard that Pharmacy is.

On one hand it is 800m away from Warden, and it is perceived as a collector road, so it seems like a no brainer to have a stop there.

On the other hand, because it is only 1.2km between Warden and Victoria Park rather than 1.6-2.0km, it is only 400m away from Victoria Park. And going 1.2 km without a stop is well within the range of rapid transit stop spacing.

I think at this point, they should put provisions in place for a stop, but skip it until there is more growth around the intersection or if Warden and Victoria Park become overburdened.

That said, there is no reason for Palmdale to have a rapid transit stop.

 

[leopetr]

Agincourt is a friggin' SUBURB.

To illustrate Agincourt being suburban, here's the Toronto walkscore map:

http://www.walkscore.com/CA-ON/Toronto

It's pretty orange.

 

[Dan416]

FWIW it also shows MCC as being pretty green...so is this walk score actually meaningful?

 

[innsertnamehere]

Walk score is measured by how many stores are within a certain distance, not how nice the pedestrian realm is.

 

[ssiguy2]

You cannot compare European trams to TC. TC is suppose to be rapid transit or atleast that's what the TTC and Metrolinx keep telling everyone. In Europe the cities with trams also have major Metro systems...............trams are more local and people take the Metros for longer trips.

In Toronto they try to tall people that you can have stops every 2 to 3 blocks, wait for street lights, wait for advanced lights and still call it rapid transit. Improved service yes but rapid, not on your life. When Finch and Sheppard lines are built, possibly by 2030 after the third enviornmental review, the people along the corridor as still not going to have easy access to mass/rapid transit.

Rapid/mass transit does not have to be grade separated but it does have to have limited stops {ie 1 stop per 1 to 1.5 km on average}, have COMPLETE priority over road lanes like Calgary's CTrain where when the LRT goes by in the suburban areas there are rail crossings where cars always have to wait for the train eventhough the trains cross those tracks every 2.5 minutes in rush hour. If the line isn't avergaing ATLEAST 25km/hr then it's not mass/rapid transit.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

Hurontario is fairly walkable south of Burnhamthorpe.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

Rapid/mass transit does not have to be grade separated but it does have to have limited stops {ie 1 stop per 1 to 1.5 km on average}, have COMPLETE priority over road lanes like Calgary's CTrain where when the LRT goes by in the suburban areas there are rail crossings where cars always have to wait for the train eventhough the trains cross those tracks every 2.5 minutes in rush hour. If the line isn't avergaing ATLEAST 25km/hr then it's not mass/rapid transit.

Exactly. The Yonge Subway south of Bloor is NOT rapid transit, nor are most of the subways in Europe since they have stop every 500-800m. Unless we follow your rules, only suburban railway can be considered rapid transit.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Regardless of stop spacing subways move massive volumes of people even over short distances.

 

[Electrify]

Would you be so kind as to say clearly what you are advocating? I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're trying to weasel around to 'we should continue to have Sheppard underground.' If so, stop. Sheppard should never have been underground, and to compound the mistake would be egregious.

Dufferin Mall is a royal mistake. Yonge is the spine of the city, and, while you are technically correct that the condos came after the Yonge line, given the decades-long time gap, I'm going to go with 'sort-of correlation does not imply causation.'

Agincourt is a friggin' SUBURB.

Reread what I wrote: I never said Sheppard should be underground. I said that I wished that people would stop assuming that the sole reason why Sheppard should not get a subway is because it is suburban, because it is a very thin argument. If I may "Jacobswin" this discussion (sort of like Godwin, only instead of referencing Hitler, I'm referencing Jane Jacobs), when discussing Agincourt I am beginning to feel like we are discussing North Boston at the beginning of Death and Life. In that case, Jacob's noticed a fairly lively urban environment, but it was labelled a "slum" and therefore had to be demolished. Here I am noticing an area of high densities, mixed use, and pedestrian activity. Not as much as in the inner city, but far more than what you would find in most concepts of suburbia. But according to you, that doesn't matter: it is a suburb, and therefore is a pox on the urban form.

The biggest irony in all this is that your screen name is based off of a neighbourhood that was constructed as a suburb.

 

[Electrify]

Exactly. The Yonge Subway south of Bloor is NOT rapid transit, nor are most of the subways in Europe since they have stop every 500-800m. Unless we follow your rules, only suburban railway can be considered rapid transit.

In fairness, I am somewhat surprised they built so many stations so close together. Even in Manhattan most stops end up being about 600m apart. Considering the time taken to go underground and back up, and that College was considered the northern boundary of downtown in the 40s and 50s, I'm surprised that stops like King, Dundas, Wellsley, and Rosedale made the cut.

 

[nfitz]

Even in Manhattan most stops end up being about 600m apart.

Different lines in Manhattan vary. There are lines where the stops are 400 metres apart.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Because the subway was more of a way to replace the streetcar and make it faster than it was a project to provide fast urban rail from the suburbs. The Yonge line was built to replace a streetcar line, not to build rapid transit.

 

[ssiguy2]

Exactly. The Yonge Subway south of Bloor is NOT rapid transit, nor are most of the subways in Europe since they have stop every 500-800m. Unless we follow your rules, only suburban railway can be considered rapid transit.

I used Calgary as an example and I specifically said, LRT in SUBURBAN areas. Obviously inner citiy mass rapid transit will have more stops due to higher density of both population and destinations. Toronto obviously hasn't figure that because it's suppose rapid transit Finch/Sheppard LRTs will have stops much more frequently than in the inner city than in the burbs.

At grade transit also has the issue of ROW. Advanced lights can be acheived but not with trains rolling by every 90 seconds from both directions and having to stop every 2 to 3 blocks and wait for all lights and advanced green lights.

Impossible. This is why no other city on the planet would have the gaul to call such a system rapid transit. This is simply improved transit but at a very high cost. Why they just don't put buses down Finch/Sheppard with a painted median line for buses only and save themselves 70% of the cost and take very little time to do it is anyone's guess. Double articulated buses have the same capacity as an LRT and are more reliable.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

We are years away from Finch and Sheppard construction. I am willing to bet that Metrolinx is going to scrap quite a few of the stops/stations once they have absolute control over the design of the line like they've done with the ECLRT.

At grade transit also has the issue of ROW. Advanced lights can be acheived but not with trains rolling by every 90 seconds from both directions and having to stop every 2 to 3 blocks and wait for all lights and advanced green lights.

Stopping every 2 to 3 blocks seems like a worst case scenario. I'm hoping that Metrolinx and Toronto will eliminate quite a few intersections if it will not harm traffic flow too badly. Ideally residential intersections with low traffic along Sheppard and Finch can be eliminated. This would mean that stoplights would be 0.8 - 1km apart and in the worst case scenario drivers would have to travel 500m to make a U-turn around the ROW. Drivers will complain but stopping an LRVs with 200+ riders so a few cars can pass through an intersection doesn't make much sense.