Transit City Plan

[rbt]

That's what TTC reports at http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Operating_Statistics/2011.jsp Presumably it's full, not crush. Thought that would be a heck of a crush to get 80 people on a car!

All you need to do is stand at the platform stairs and count people going down during rush hour. Whatever number it peaks at is the top carrying capacity of the SRT trains in Toronto. The people left behind on the platform at previous stations would have boarded if the number could be increased without riders being very uncomfortable.

Capacity has as much to do with culture of the riders as anything.

 

[ssiguy2]

Just fix the small section where it goes under the GO line and buy some MK11s and you have another 30 years of the line.
As far as this shutting down the line for 3 years crap the reality is that the Expo line has already had most of it's track replaced but was done in sections, at different times and on the weekends and overnight. When the line needed to be shut on the weekends they closed a small section at a time {about 0.5 km and simply ran the trains in each direction on the same track. They made the trains larger but fewer going by. Toronto could easily do this on a much smaller line that gets one-fifth the ridership. While they are doing this they can put in the heating mechanisms. This isn't rocket science kids.

Toronto could have more than twice the size of a subway system than it has now by 202 if it took the Eglinton funds and simply ade use of it's current huge rail network and used EMU with standard TTC fares running every few minutes like the subways.. Toronto not only has GO rail corridors at it's disposal but also freight corridors where it could convince {ie blackmail} the CN/CP to let them use the corridor for elevated transit like Vancouver. There is of course one added option..............Toronto could actually help pay for it's own mass transit as opposed to expecting all Ontarians to pay for it, but that's just plain silly.

 

[nfitz]

As far as this shutting down the line for 3 years crap the reality is that the Expo line has already had most of it's track replaced but was done in sections, at different times and on the weekends and overnight.

The estimate to convert to Mark III was an 8-month shut-down. It's not just new track, they have to make that tunnel bigger.

Toronto not only has GO rail corridors at it's disposal but also freight corridors where it could convince {ie blackmail} the CN/CP

Toronto has nothing. The GO rail corridors belong to the province, and they've made it very clear they have no interest in running local transit, as it would reduce the capacity to transport people in from 905.

 

[adeel]

Good digging. Yeah, that's what I suspected. Seems like we're paying a really big penalty now for such restricting design standards when the line was first built. That's what happens when you design the infrastructure to just meet the requirements of a single technology. It leaves you very little wiggle room for anything else.

That's why, as far as I'm concerned, the City should be undertaking these two projects simultaneously:

1) The DRL.

2) Downgrade the SELRT to a BRT, saving roughly $600 million. Pour that $600 million into digging a Bloor-Danforth Subway extension to McCowan & Sheppard. It may cause a bit of delay with the SRT, but at least you can get a BRT service up and running along Sheppard a lot faster, to take some of the load off of the SRT.

gweed:



Agreed with slight modifications - upgrade SELRT to Vic Park as a subway extension, leave the rest as BRT and start the BD extension. It will cost more, but not THAT much more.

AoD

It seems the transit afficianadoes (sp) roughly agree that this plan makes alot of sense, so why isnt that what the province ended up doing. Where did this obsession with eglinton come along?

 

[gweed123]

It seems the transit afficianadoes (sp) roughly agree that this plan makes alot of sense, so why isnt that what the province ended up doing. Where did this obsession with eglinton come along?

Eglinton isn't really the problem, Sheppard is. It seems that for the past 2 (almost 3) decades politicians have had this fetish with Sheppard. First it was Lastman and his subway idea. Then it was Miller & Co. with the Sheppard East LRT. Neither of which are really warranted, based on the actual and projected volumes. More importantly, they were never, and still aren't, transit priorities for this city. Why Sheppard East was pushed to the top of the heap for Transit City I'll never know, but I suspect it had very little to do with the whopping 3,100 pphpd it was projected to carry.

If Transit City was a DRL, a replacement of the SRT with a Bloor-Danforth Subway extension, an Eglinton Crosstown (be it subway, ICTS, or LRT), and BRT along Sheppard East and Finch East & West, it would have been a perfectly sensible plan that would have gotten a lot of support. It would have had something for everyone. Alas, the "LRTs for all" approach irked many, and it was countered fiercely by the Ford's "subways for all" approach. And now we have a complete cluster**k at City Hall, and in public opinion.

The Stintz Plan, and then One City, were perfectly reasonable compromises. But by the time they came to light, the forum had already been so poisoned by the two extreme positions that a rational compromise wasn't what anybody (on either side) wanted to hear.

/rant off

 

[GenerationW]

Studies and facts were more than clear to anyone not wearing subway goggles when city council voted, there is no need for anymore of this nonsense.

Sure, that's why Councillors (including some not wearing subway goggles) are starting to flee this sinking ship.

And stop the crap. Studies and facts weren't clear to anyone in 2006/7. No one was truly serious about an LRT network until then.

That's why, as far as I'm concerned, the City should be undertaking these two projects simultaneously:

1) The DRL.

2) Downgrade the SELRT to a BRT, saving roughly $600 million. Pour that $600 million into digging a Bloor-Danforth Subway extension to McCowan & Sheppard. It may cause a bit of delay with the SRT, but at least you can get a BRT service up and running along Sheppard a lot faster, to take some of the load off of the SRT.

Works for me.

Agreed with slight modifications - upgrade SELRT to Vic Park as a subway extension, leave the rest as BRT and start the BD extension. It will cost more, but not THAT much more.

AoD

I doubt the politics would work out to have a Sheppard extension with only two extra stations. Too much trouble for too little gain. Time for Ford to put a sock in it (I know, fat chance), and for any Sheppard expansion plans to be delayed indefinitely, as in decades.

It seems the transit afficianadoes (sp) roughly agree that this plan makes alot of sense, so why isnt that what the province ended up doing. Where did this obsession with eglinton come along?

Nothing wrong with a higher order of transit on Eglinton. It was just wrong of Mayor Miller and Adam Giambrone making it the centrepiece of Transit City while totally ignoring a DRL.

 

[nfitz]

It was just wrong of Mayor Miller and Adam Giambrone making it the centrepiece of Transit City while totally ignoring a DRL.

They didn't totally ignore it. The current DRL study started when Miller was mayor. Giambrone talked more than once about having to start building the DRL around 2018 or so after Transit City was finished. I doubt very much it will start as soon as Giambrone had advocated for.

 

[Rainforest]

Danforth subway extension to STC will cost about $500 million more than the amount currently allocated to the SRT conversion.

Extending the subway further, to Sheppard / McCowan, will cost additional $700 million.

So, if we want the Danforth subway extension and do not want it to compete for future funding with DRL, the only practical option is to re-purpose all funds from Sheppard East LRT to Danforth subway. The subway will be built, but the Sheppard corridor will not get any improvements in this round; not even BRT.

And I suspect that such option would get a majority vote in a popular ballot in Scarborough; although the benefits would be spread un-evenly and some areas would lose out compared to the current plan.

 

[nfitz]

Danforth subway extension to STC will cost about $500 million more than the amount currently allocated to the SRT conversion.

Not even close. It will cost $500 million more than the cost of the conversion AND the extension to Sheppard to combined. Remember the extension to Sheppard is the more than the conversion.

 

[rbt]

The estimate to convert to Mark III was an 8-month shut-down. It's not just new track, they have to make that tunnel bigger.

Minimum of 8-month shut-down. After this conversion was approved, the TTC performed additional study and found it was going to be closer to a 2 year shut-down.

 

[Rainforest]

Not even close. It will cost $500 million more than the cost of the conversion AND the extension to Sheppard to combined. Remember the extension to Sheppard is the more than the conversion.

You are right; I was not entirely clear.

The point I wanted to make is that [all funds allocated to SRT conversion and extension] + [all funds allocated for Sheppard LRT] approximately equal to [cost of extending Danforth subway to Sheppard /McCowan].

Hence, Danforth subway can be extended without getting any new funding, but the cost of it would be a complete deferral of any improvements along Sheppard.

 

[rbt]

You are right; I was not entirely clear.

The point I wanted to make is that [all funds allocated to SRT conversion and extension] + [all funds allocated for Sheppard LRT] approximately equal to [cost of extending Danforth subway to Sheppard /McCowan].

No, extending the subway to Sheppard & McCowan is significantly more expensive. There is no option to transfer money from Sheppard LRT to this project; politics blocks it.

Conservative majority: Sheppard LRT is canned and funds go against the deficit/debt. No funded replacement is proposed; so there is no money to transfer. DRL might be funded (depends on whether the banks and developers will call in favours to get it). Most transportation money will go to a few highway improvements and GO extensions into new territory.

NDP majority: LRTs continue on track as proposed and DRL will almost certainly be funded. Most new transit money will go into operating subsidies rather than capital (they ran on that in the last election at least).

Liberal majority: Depends largely on the new leader but continuing what has been started is most likely. They really need results at this point and changing plans again isn't going to help them politically at all. Most of their current scandals are related to not committing to the project and being wishy-washy with them. Any new funds would be to a DRL + Yonge Extension combination and Mississauga; not Danforth.



Actual Options somewhat on the table:
1) Danforth extension: Costs $500M extra and stops at SCC. Bus service would be run between Sheppard and SCC. Sheppard LRT, if built, would not intersect the Danforth extension. I expect Toronto will need to fund the $500M gap from general revenues (property tax, land transfer tax, etc.) and fund the EA and upfront.

2) SRT converstion/upgrade option as LRT (ALRT costs more) would stop at Sheppard and would intersect with the Sheppard LRT.


It's pretty much a guarantee that all options involve an SRT closure at this point simply because of the age of the SRT components.

 

[nfitz]

Hence, Danforth subway can be extended without getting any new funding, but the cost of it would be a complete deferral of any improvements along Sheppard.

But how do you move Metrolinx's design/finance/build/own model to a short extension of an existing TTC line.

I'd think you'd have to get new funding, and Metrolinx would spend on other projects instead - such as Hurontario and in Hamilton.

 

[gweed123]

You are right; I was not entirely clear.

The point I wanted to make is that [all funds allocated to SRT conversion and extension] + [all funds allocated for Sheppard LRT] approximately equal to [cost of extending Danforth subway to Sheppard /McCowan].

Hence, Danforth subway can be extended without getting any new funding, but the cost of it would be a complete deferral of any improvements along Sheppard.

All funds for Sheppard are $950 million. I thought the quoted number for added cost of the subway option vs the SRT extension + refurb was $600 million, which would leave $350 million left over for Sheppard. That would be enough to build a pretty decent BRT. Or are my numbers with respect to the subway extension off?

And based on that, you could keep the $300 million of Fed dollars on Sheppard for the BRT, so that it isn't being shifted elsewhere. The Provincial dollars I suspect are much more easily moved.

And even if the extension ends up being more than $650 million more, couldn't the city just chip in the rest?

 

[ssiguy2]

The estimate to convert to Mark III was an 8-month shut-down. It's not just new track, they have to make that tunnel bigger.

Toronto has nothing. The GO rail corridors belong to the province, and they've made it very clear they have no interest in running local transit, as it would reduce the capacity to transport people in from 905.

That's what happenes when a transit system is run more like a feudal society than a mode of integrated transportation. That aside I can't imagine why GO or the province would care if some of the corridors are used like the Airport Link. Let's face it, it's ridership levels will be very poor and the only reason it's being built is for the Pan Am Games. It's not a transit line for Torontonians but it could be. As for other corridors there are some sections where there is more than enough room to add tracks and where there isn't they could........wait for it.....elevated the lines like Vancouver. The Millenium Line runs along a current , working rail corridor thru Vancouver and New Westminster.

LRT wasn't even being considered until Miller got his hands on it and it had very little to do with moving people quickly from A to B but rather "great city building". Miller's political interference warped the transit planning process. A transit authorities first, second, and last priority is moving people safely, efficiently, quickly, and affordably from A to B. That should be it's ONLY concern, all the rest is why the City has something called a planning department. Hopefully they work together but a transit authority is exactly that and not "great city building".

As for this shut down of SRT due to having to tunnel deeper under the GO rail corridor here's a wild and crazy idea....build a bridge over the rail line while the MK1s continue to roll.........no down time at all. This would allow MK111 with better and more reliable service, more comfortable and quiet trains, and far cheaper operating costs due to automation. It would also free up those funds for a DRL, extending the BD further east to Kingston and beyond using the rail corridor, or continue the SRT further north or east along Eglinton to make the Eglington Crosstown a fully grade separated automated line like it should be.

Only in Toronto do they shrink a rapid transit system, replace with a smaller or non-grade separated system and then call it rapid transit expansion. It may look pretty on a map but doesn't expand the system or help Toronto's long suffering transit users one bit.