Transit City Plan

[gweed123]

Are you, my friend, actually implying that Bus Rapid Transit lines can handle the same capacity as Light Rail transit lines?

Unless you want passing lanes that take up road space, Bus Rapid Transit isn't really that rapid at most ~3,000 PPH.

LRT's can be coupled and platforms extended when demand rises to accommodate up to 15,000 PPH in exclusive right of ways, maybe about 9-10,000 PPH for Sheppard's configuration if full transit priority is in place with coupled vehicles. Bus rapid transit does not use space as efficiently, and because it's independently navigated and not on a track the ride isn't as comfortable and it does not attract as many riders.

The reason why the TTC did not chose BRT is because to accommodate Sheppard's growing ridership bypass lanes would be required, and there is not enough space to create a healthy walking environment or accommodate two lanes of traffic, a bike lane, separate turning lanes and BRT WITH passing lanes..

Who would really wants to ride a bus, anyways?

No, I'm implying that the projected ridership for most of the Transit City lines falls within the limits of BRT. The only lines that really don't are the Eglinton LRT, the Scarborough LRT, the Waterfront West LRT, and the Finch West LRT after about 2025. The Don Mills LRT (north of Eglinton), the Jane LRT, the Sheppard East LRT, and the Scarborough-Malvern LRT could all be built as curb side BRT and have no problems with capacity.

Woodroffe Ave carries between 3,500 and 4,000 pphpd, with no problems. None of those Transit City lines mentioned above, even at the 2031 projections, are going to get in that range. Sheppard's 2031 projection is 3,100 pphpd. And bypass lanes? It's called the general traffic lane immediately to the left. Buses do that in downtown Ottawa all the time.

Honestly, it's not a big deal as people are making it out to be. The "problems" that are being raised about BRT are pretty minor, and certainly don't justify spending 2-3x more on LRT than would be spent building BRT.

 

[gweed123]

Well Mayor Ford apparently popped into LeDrew live today for a surprise interview stating that "we're going to get a Sheppard Subway" -- so here we go again!

Maybe he should be focused on not getting kicked out of office first...

 

[dowlingm]

Well Mayor Ford apparently popped into LeDrew live today for a surprise interview

Ah yes, the bowtied clown who despite the media presenting him as a top three candidate with Pitfield and Miller pulled in a princely one per cent of the vote. Ford is always concerned for the taxPAYERS but SLeD owed RevCan just shy of half a mill back in 2005 and yet still thought himself a credible political candidate one year later. With chutzpah like that he was an easy choice for Ford!

 

[ssiguy2]

Toronto could save itself over $1 billion by simply painting bus-only lanes down the centre of Finch and Sheppard like the LRT lines and run articulated buses.

If Toronto has to have LRT for some unknown reason why not simply use the Hydro corridor just one block north of Finch? It could have far fewer stops and actually be rapid and reduced bus service could still run on Finch for more local transit use. It would be faster, more reliable, wouldn't eat into Finch road space, and be much easier to build and hence faster.

The problem with both Sheppard and Finch LRT is that due to how they are being executed they will not improve travel times one bit. They will certainly be more comfortable, smooth, accessible, higher capacity, roomier and somewhat more reliable than the current situation which is great but they will still leave Finch and Sheppard area residence without access to rapid transit.

 

[snowystar]

It could have far fewer stops and actually be rapid and reduced bus service could still run on Finch for more local transit use. It would be faster, more reliable, wouldn't eat into Finch road space, and be much easier to build and hence faster.

I think the problem is that they want to completely replace bus service on LRT corridors. That is, they are building a system that serves both as rapid transit and local transit.

 

[nhui06]

I think the problem is that they want to completely replace bus service on LRT corridors. That is, they are building a system that serves both as rapid transit and local transit.

Yeah which makes it a streetcar line. These are basically St. Clair with slight more spacing between stops and bigger LRVs...

I sincerely hope that they will have a passenger request button like streetcars then, because it would suck having to stop at all 26 stops during off-hours.. yeesh..

 

[Dan416]

I agree with the idea of just leaving Sheppard alone for the time being. Which is basically exactly what we're doing now. Sheppard is and never was a real priority.

Focus on more important corridors like Eglinton and Finch if we can't afford to finish the subway right now. Run some express buses on Sheppard in the meantime and voila, everyone (no one) is happy.

 

[Voltz]

I agree with the idea of just leaving Sheppard alone for the time being. Which is basically exactly what we're doing now. Sheppard is and never was a real priority.

Focus on more important corridors like Eglinton and Finch if we can't afford to finish the subway right now. Run some express buses on Sheppard in the meantime and voila, everyone (no one) is happy.

Which I would be fine with, except that Ford will still keep pushing for his Sheppard Subway and not care about anything else. And there are enough gullible fools who will join him or vote for him.

 

[Dan416]

Which I would be fine with, except that Ford will still keep pushing for his Sheppard Subway and not care about anything else. And there are enough gullible fools who will join him or vote for him.

You really think Ford will survive another election?

 

[Rainforest]

I agree with the idea of just leaving Sheppard alone for the time being. Which is basically exactly what we're doing now. Sheppard is and never was a real priority.

In that case, the extended Scarborough LRT needs to be somehow connected to the future Conlins Yard.

To create such connection, I would consider a branch of Scarborough LRT that splits off the main line at Sheppard / Progress, and runs in the middle of Sheppard to Meadowvale (and perhaps the Zoo).

The ridership of that branch would be light, but it would bring rapid transit to the most remote north-eastern part of 416.

 

[gweed123]

Toronto could save itself over $1 billion by simply painting bus-only lanes down the centre of Finch and Sheppard like the LRT lines and run articulated buses.

If Toronto has to have LRT for some unknown reason why not simply use the Hydro corridor just one block north of Finch? It could have far fewer stops and actually be rapid and reduced bus service could still run on Finch for more local transit use. It would be faster, more reliable, wouldn't eat into Finch road space, and be much easier to build and hence faster.

The problem with both Sheppard and Finch LRT is that due to how they are being executed they will not improve travel times one bit. They will certainly be more comfortable, smooth, accessible, higher capacity, roomier and somewhat more reliable than the current situation which is great but they will still leave Finch and Sheppard area residence without access to rapid transit.

Agree with everything you have said, except for the BRT configuration. I read the Halton Region report on the implementation of the Dundas St BRT, and they (and many others) recommended curb side BRT instead of in-median. Ottawa does strictly curb side as well. The only place where I think they are even considering doing in-median BRT is York Region.

Curb side is much less disruptive to traffic, easier to board, and easier to plow (especially if the centre corridor has any kind of a raised median).

Otherwise though, completely agree with your statement.

You really think Ford will survive another election?

I think it's doubtful Ford survives to the end of the month (or however long his trial goes).

 

[Electrify]

I think the problem is that they want to completely replace bus service on LRT corridors. That is, they are building a system that serves both as rapid transit and local transit.

Funny thing is that rapid transit with 800-1200m stop spacing is supposed to work as a median between local transit and regional transit. Having Transit City lines stop every 400-500m is essentially making it a tramway local rail line...

Yeah which makes it a streetcar line. These are basically St. Clair with slight more spacing between stops and bigger LRVs...

I sincerely hope that they will have a passenger request button like streetcars then, because it would suck having to stop at all 26 stops during off-hours.. yeesh..

Fortunately, like most local transit routes, it will only stop upon request.

That said, I do want to clarify why I earlier called it a tram. In most international cities which operate both LRTs and streetcars/trams, the LRTs have comparable stop spacing and speed to the metro lines, while trams (and buses) have their stops spacing set at about 400m.

So internationally, our Transit City lines would be considered streetcars, and our streetcars would be considered an embarrassment.

 

[BurlOak]

Which I would be fine with, except that Ford will still keep pushing for his Sheppard Subway and not care about anything else. And there are enough gullible fools who will join him or vote for him.

Maybe Ford would not have been elected in the first place if the Transit City plan did not exist. Many people did not like the idea that the tranist plan for Toronto is about $15B in LRT - with about half funded - an no subway.

 

[car4041]

Maybe Ford would not have been elected in the first place if the Transit City plan did not exist.

I doubt it -- despite Ford's subsequent claims that his mandate is all about subways, transit really wasn't a big issue in the election; it was all "stop the gravy train".

 

[nhui06]

Funny thing is that rapid transit with 800-1200m stop spacing is supposed to work as a median between local transit and regional transit. Having Transit City lines stop every 400-500m is essentially making it a tramway local rail line...




Fortunately, like most local transit routes, it will only stop upon request.

That said, I do want to clarify why I earlier called it a tram. In most international cities which operate both LRTs and streetcars/trams, the LRTs have comparable stop spacing and speed to the metro lines, while trams (and buses) have their stops spacing set at about 400m.

So internationally, our Transit City lines would be considered streetcars, and our streetcars would be considered an embarrassment.

Here is hoping that the TTC will seriously reexamine their streetcar stops then and remove some, especially with our new long streetcars coming on board.

Anyone know what sort of work they are doing on the Queens Quay line? Was taking the bus the other evening and traffic was horrible, but I do not see any signs of work being done... why close off the streetcar line and prevent buses from using the ROW if there is absolutely no activity going on?