There is activity -- did you notice that all the wiring for the streetcars is gone? There's also been some work done by Hydro and Bell. You can subscribe for construction updates to follow progress.
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Transit City Plan
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
nfitz
Superstar
Even if Ford looses, I suspect that he'd be able to appeal it through the courts. Doesn't it normally take 5-8 years to get something up to the Supreme Court, through all the steps? I'd be surprised if it was through the courts by the next election.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Certainly curb side BRT can work well, Vancouver's BLine system is proof of that.
The BLine only uses curb side but it runs artics, has POP, signal priority, some bus-only lanes, and stops only at bus transfer points and the proof is in the pudding.....ridership has doubled on Broadway despite already being the busiest bus route in the city. They still run the original Broadway route but now with frequency of every 10 minutes for more local travellers. The BLine runs every 5 minutes during the day and 4 minutes in rush hour and is constantly packed. It is also important to note that they do not share the same bus stop as the regular Broadway bus so there is clear definition between the two routes. Sometimes the separation is only 20 meters and sometimes on the other side of the intersection to clearly state that one stop is regular service and the other is rapid transit.
The BLine is a simple acknowlegement that most travellers are trying to get from one major destination and bus cross routes to another major destination. In Vancouver's case that means Broadway SkyTrain station to UBC with major employment area stations inbetween suchas Granville, VGH, and City Hall. It now connects also with the Canada Line but that came much later. The BLine is VERY fast despite going down the incredible congested Broadway corridor which is a thiner road than Finch and a much more important street and far more built up. In Vancouver Broadway could be compared to Bloor not Finch.
It is not only a fantastic route but also has a name recognition. The artics have different colour schemes and clearling state BLine so they are very recognizable. Many businesses and real estate housing sales/rentals indicated BLine on their ads the same as they would SkyTrain or in Toronto's case, subway. They are marked clearly on the SkyTrain system map and people view it as part of the city's rapid transit network and not just another bus. Other cities desperatly wanted their own BLines and hence the service was expanded to Richmond/YVR and Coquitlam. They drawed some many new passengers on both that Richmond built up enough ridership to get it's Canada Line and same is coming true for Coquitlam with it's new Evergreen SkyTrain line to be open by 2015. Surrey has been begging for a BLine down the busyt King George Road and it seems to be finally on it's way.
Despite the huge increase in ridership and TOD it has created it is incredibly cheap and fast to implement. All Translink did was put in new shelters, a few sign posts, and buy the buses.........it cost arounf $1 million per km including the price of the buses.
The BLine system is what Toronto should be emnulating and is a stellar example of how to provide both rapid transit and regular service on the same roadway at a bargain price that is a fraction the cost of LRT and very fast to implement.
The BLine only uses curb side but it runs artics, has POP, signal priority, some bus-only lanes, and stops only at bus transfer points and the proof is in the pudding.....ridership has doubled on Broadway despite already being the busiest bus route in the city. They still run the original Broadway route but now with frequency of every 10 minutes for more local travellers. The BLine runs every 5 minutes during the day and 4 minutes in rush hour and is constantly packed. It is also important to note that they do not share the same bus stop as the regular Broadway bus so there is clear definition between the two routes. Sometimes the separation is only 20 meters and sometimes on the other side of the intersection to clearly state that one stop is regular service and the other is rapid transit.
The BLine is a simple acknowlegement that most travellers are trying to get from one major destination and bus cross routes to another major destination. In Vancouver's case that means Broadway SkyTrain station to UBC with major employment area stations inbetween suchas Granville, VGH, and City Hall. It now connects also with the Canada Line but that came much later. The BLine is VERY fast despite going down the incredible congested Broadway corridor which is a thiner road than Finch and a much more important street and far more built up. In Vancouver Broadway could be compared to Bloor not Finch.
It is not only a fantastic route but also has a name recognition. The artics have different colour schemes and clearling state BLine so they are very recognizable. Many businesses and real estate housing sales/rentals indicated BLine on their ads the same as they would SkyTrain or in Toronto's case, subway. They are marked clearly on the SkyTrain system map and people view it as part of the city's rapid transit network and not just another bus. Other cities desperatly wanted their own BLines and hence the service was expanded to Richmond/YVR and Coquitlam. They drawed some many new passengers on both that Richmond built up enough ridership to get it's Canada Line and same is coming true for Coquitlam with it's new Evergreen SkyTrain line to be open by 2015. Surrey has been begging for a BLine down the busyt King George Road and it seems to be finally on it's way.
Despite the huge increase in ridership and TOD it has created it is incredibly cheap and fast to implement. All Translink did was put in new shelters, a few sign posts, and buy the buses.........it cost arounf $1 million per km including the price of the buses.
The BLine system is what Toronto should be emnulating and is a stellar example of how to provide both rapid transit and regular service on the same roadway at a bargain price that is a fraction the cost of LRT and very fast to implement.
Jaye101
Active Member
Your talking about a city that put a subway on Sheppard East.
To get people out of cars you're going to have to do better than a bus. Buses do not offer the same comfort or the same capacity. Which means that it would have a lesser influence on the intensification of these Avenues. The cost of LRT over BRT is not enough to compromise the potential of the corridor with saving a few dollars. These are areas of the city that deserve the investment.
Just the psychological effect of adding rail service to these corridors would change the mindsets of suburbanites along the corridor. The reason why David Miller opted for LRT was because it offered a higher order of service over a bus and he felt this was necessary in order to intensify these neighbourhoods. It also offers a healthy network for people who live exceptionally far from subway lines. These are people who have to travel 40+ mins on a bus to get to a station.
LRT offers the perfect compromise.
Jaye101
Active Member
I wouldn't call them an embarrassment. But you're right, anyways.
Toronto needs to have a plan to update and expand it's streetcar network to make it more efficient. Right now our streetcars behave similar to buses, when the new streetcars come I'm sure the political will will be there to upgrade the network. Especially along King, Queen and College.
An articulated LRV in a right of way in Suburban Toronto will not behave like a streetcar route. Especially with signal priority. It'll be just right for the demand on a corridor like Sheppard.
TrickyRicky
Senior Member
I don't understand or follow transit like you guys but I must say that my recent trip to Tokyo opened my eyes to the importance and power of heavy rail lines as mass transit in a large urban area. While Tokyo's subway system is extensive it is a model of redundancy and poor connectivity I feel makes it a poster child against subway privatization. On the other hand mass rail operated by JR is the backbone and real champion of the city and probably what makes a city of that size run as efficently as it does. I read or heard (was it here on this forum?) that one JR line in central Tokyo carries more passengers than the entire London Underground. The key to the system is that it is not just radial it has circular loops connecting train station nodes. Think of it as a highway system but trains instead of cars. After seeing this system I would be much more interested in Toronto using heavy rail, even if it is surface run or elevated (as are most of the JR Tokyo lines) over light rail or even subway. For a city Toronto's geographic size I think subway and light rail are fine for niche applications but the main backbone of the system should be heavy rail. That means heavy rail not only radially to feed Union, but also a heavy rail or several heavy rail ring road lines.
GenerationW
Senior Member
Gullible fools never go out of style. After all there were enough wide-eyed councillors who agreed to take $8 billion of essentially free money and spend it on Giambrone's plan without taking some time to have a serious debate and order up some studies to determine future priorities.
Never discount the ability of a cockroach to survive.
11th
Senior Member
Except signal priority screws up the traffic signals sequence big time at intersections. The worst case scenerio should see traffic back up from Sheppard to Ellesmere, and Finch on the north-south arterials during the rush hours; and yes, connecting bus routes will be among those traffic.
The least they could do is grade-seperate the line at streets like Victoria Park, Warden, Kennedy, and McCowan, be it elevated or dipped below the intersection.
Sheppard is not downtown, there are only few mid-block streets that do cross the 401, and doesn't have an interchange with it.
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W. K. Lis
Superstar
Let's see. Maximum capacity of the Flexity Freedom is 251. Times 3 equals 753 people in a three-car train. Versus 20 cars times 1.3 people per car equals 26 people.
753 versus 26, guess who wins, the people taking the light rail train.
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
^What about people taking the bus on the cross streets?
I actually drove down Broadway a couple weeks ago, from the Canada Line station to UBC. I was very impressed with the transit measures along it, and in many cases the buses were going at least as fast as we were in a car. It just goes to show you that BRT can be an effective method of boosting ridership, almost as much as LRT can, given the right setup and right branding.
As for a comparison to a Toronto street, I would compare it more to Eglinton. Midtown avenue with several perpendicular rail routes (subway or SkyTrain, depending on the city).
Personally, I think that that type of service should be implemented on Finch, Sheppard East, Jane, and Don Mills ASAP. A half decent service can be up and running within a couple years for pennies on the dollar compared to the LRTs. Build the BRTs now, and then see which corridors are still in need of an upgrade after that. Don Mills is the closest, and would really only need some better shelters, artics, and some special branding (basically get the Züm treatment).
You've never ridden on a real BRT, have you?
Ottawa has the highest per capita transit ridership of any mid-size city in North America, doing it exclusively with BRT (well, an O-Train pilot project on top of it, but that's very minor). Most of the ridership comes from Kanata, Barrhaven, and Orleans, areas that are very suburban.
To say that you need rail in order to attract suburban riders, given the example of Ottawa and the example of the BLine in Vancouver is, quite frankly, wrong. Viva and Züm are also good examples of how instituting even quasi-BRT can lead to a pretty sizeable jump in ridership in some pretty suburban areas.
Jaye101
Active Member
With the demand on Sheppard during rush there isn't going to be an overwhelming number of LRVs. It takes one ~10 second signal to get an LRV through an intersection if it doesn't have to stop. This will not disrupt transit on cross streets.
Remember, buses have signal priority technology as well now. So both routes benefit from there being less transit vehicles moving through various intersections. That's if they use Transit Signal Priority, at all.
Jaye101
Active Member
I'm not saying that a BRT system cannot physically carry the capacities forecasted for Sheppard and Finch. Nor am I saying that more people will not ride them due to their increased capacities.I've ridden BRT in Ottawa, didn't say it wasn't effective. But it does not have the capacity of LRTs, and it's the extra capacity that will help intensify the Avenue to a greater extent.
What I am saying is that I understand the rational for choosing LRT over BRT. The idea is to "transform" North York, Scarborough, and Etobicoke by intensification lead by increased availability to transit. Yes the same thing can be done with BRT, but not to the same extent. Rail vehicles are a higher order of transit - with more capacity, and as such the social response to them is naturally different.
BRT is suitable for certain corridors such as Wyme, Victoria Park, Kennedy, Kipling, Markham, and Islington. For corridors such as Sheppard, Finch, Eglinton, Don Mills, Dufferin, and Jane; a higher order of transit is needed. We can build all three, Subways, BRT and LRT. It's all how the network functions: the densities of the corridors and the travel patterns through the area.
Routes like Sheppard, Eglinton, and Finch will form the framework for a greater LRT network that will offer much more connectivity that's more attractive to the rider, with a higher potential for future ridership growth.
But my point is that, even with all of that expected intensification, the 2031 demands on most of those corridors will still be within what BRT can handle, and very much at the lower end of the LRT spectrum. You're advocating for spending billions of dollars more than what's necessary in order to provide extra capacity that won't be needed for 30+ years.
Of Finch West, Sheppard East, Jane, and Don Mills, the only one that is projected to hit the ceiling of BRT capacity by 2031 is Finch West, and even then it's going to just barely go over.
I would much rather build BRT on all of Finch, Sheppard East, Don Mills, and Jane now, and then make a decision 10-20 years from now on which one (if any) need to be upgraded, rather than just going ahead and building LRT on just half of Finch West and Sheppard East now. It's spending billions of dollars on extra capacity that isn't needed now, and in some cases may not ever really be needed.
Interestingly enough, you're using the exact same argument that Ford is using: "build it, and they will come". Yes, some will come, but not enough to justify the tripling of capital costs to build that extra capacity that won't even be used.