Transit City Plan

[Rainforest]

Regarding Jane and Keele, I would first look at the impact of the E-W LRT lines (Eglinton and Finch are already funded, and Wilson or Lawrence might get one in future) on the ridership of N-S routes. It is possible that the E-W LRT lines (north of Eglinton, those are cheaper to build) will skim enough riders off the Jane and Keele routes to make the latter unsuitable for LRT.

If not, then operating Jane LRT north of Eglinton only, and as a branch of Eglinton LRT, should be considered.

 

[sixrings]

Regarding Jane and Keele, I would first look at the impact of the E-W LRT lines (Eglinton and Finch are already funded, and Wilson or Lawrence might get one in future) on the ridership of N-S routes. It is possible that the E-W LRT lines (north of Eglinton, those are cheaper to build) will skim enough riders off the Jane and Keele routes to make the latter unsuitable for LRT.

If not, then operating Jane LRT north of Eglinton only, and as a branch of Eglinton LRT, should be considered.

i looked up the old jane lrt reports and found out that it had to be tunneled starting south of wilson. Thats one long tunnel which basically means is financially a nightmare. Because of this i suggested keele since its wide enough north of eglinton to have a lrt without much problem. I do agree with lawrence and wilson getting a LRT as well but still think we need to find somewhere in the map to place some n/s routes otherwise we will just funnel so many riders onto the university and yonge lines.

 

[Rainforest]

i looked up the old jane lrt reports and found out that it had to be tunneled starting south of wilson. Thats one long tunnel which basically means is financially a nightmare.

They actually had two designs: one fully on-surface (not sure how it is possible); the other tunneled all the way from Wilson to Bloor except a short surface stretch in the Eglinton Flats area.

But in reality, Jane is very narrow (like 20 - 22 m) only between Bloor and the CP line. Between Wilson and Eglinton, it may not be wide enough for the preferred LRT street design (36 m, 4 + 2 + bicycle lanes), but it might be still possible to squeeze dedicated LRT lanes on surface.

Because of this i suggested keele since its wide enough north of eglinton to have a lrt without much problem.

Keele north of Eglinton is wide, but I am not sure what to do at Eglinton. Continue south where the street is narrow, and somehow handle the jogs? Or, join Eglinton LRT? (and the latter is harder at Keele than at Jane, as Eglinton LRT is still underground at Keele)

I do agree with lawrence and wilson getting a LRT as well but still think we need to find somewhere in the map to place some n/s routes otherwise we will just funnel so many riders onto the university and yonge lines.

University subway has a lot of spare capacity north of Bloor.

I realize that N-S connectivity is important as well, but not sure that Keele or Jane is the best solution given the issues mentioned above. Perhaps a Kipling or Islington LRT would be easier to build.

 

[sixrings]

They actually had two designs: one fully on-surface (not sure how it is possible); the other tunneled all the way from Wilson to Bloor except a short surface stretch in the Eglinton Flats area.

But in reality, Jane is very narrow (like 20 - 22 m) only between Bloor and the CP line. Between Wilson and Eglinton, it may not be wide enough for the preferred LRT street design (36 m, 4 + 2 + bicycle lanes), but it might be still possible to squeeze dedicated LRT lanes on surface.



Keele north of Eglinton is wide, but I am not sure what to do at Eglinton. Continue south where the street is narrow, and somehow handle the jogs? Or, join Eglinton LRT? (and the latter is harder at Keele than at Jane, as Eglinton LRT is still underground at Keele)



University subway has a lot of spare capacity north of Bloor.

I realize that N-S connectivity is important as well, but not sure that Keele or Jane is the best solution given the issues mentioned above. Perhaps a Kipling or Islington LRT would be easier to build.

I figured a western drl could terminate at Keeler and eglinton. Agreed as well on the Kipling lrt since it could service the new bus station, the Humber college.

 

[sixrings]

They actually had two designs: one fully on-surface (not sure how it is possible); the other tunneled all the way from Wilson to Bloor except a short surface stretch in the Eglinton Flats area.

But in reality, Jane is very narrow (like 20 - 22 m) only between Bloor and the CP line. Between Wilson and Eglinton, it may not be wide enough for the preferred LRT street design (36 m, 4 + 2 + bicycle lanes), but it might be still possible to squeeze dedicated LRT lanes on surface.



Keele north of Eglinton is wide, but I am not sure what to do at Eglinton. Continue south where the street is narrow, and somehow handle the jogs? Or, join Eglinton LRT? (and the latter is harder at Keele than at Jane, as Eglinton LRT is still underground at Keele)



University subway has a lot of spare capacity north of Bloor.

I realize that N-S connectivity is important as well, but not sure that Keele or Jane is the best solution given the issues mentioned above. Perhaps a Kipling or Islington LRT would be easier to build.

I figured a western drl could terminate at Keeler and eglinton. Agreed as well on the Kipling lrt since it could service the new bus station, the Humber college.

 

[Rainforest]

I figured a western drl could terminate at Keeler and eglinton. Agreed as well on the Kipling lrt since it could service the new bus station, the Humber college.

I have to agree that, in case DRL West is extended as far as Eglinton, Keele LRT makes sense as it will be easier to build than Jane.

 

[Palma]

. But there are a ton of people who simply dirve if they have to transfer often. I dont agree with lots of what Chong reported on the sheppard subway but i do agree that he found that everytime theres a transfer you lose 25% of potential riders. So in total I am suggesting taking over 1000 houses to have 3 continuous routes which would encourage mid size density walkable neighbourhoods and transit use and you are making it sound like I am destroying the entire city. you do realize there are millions of people in Toronto. BTW im open again to elevated LRT on routes like JANE but again I am sure some people on here are going to make it sound like that will destroy neighbourhoods. The bottom line is nothing will ever make everyone completely happy but that doesnt mean there arent benefits of some things for the majority of the city. I live at bathurst and eglinton and people in my neighbourhood will never take transit because they all can afford to drive and have been and are objecting the eglinton LRT. Apparently it will be too much traffic chaos for them. Is that a reason to not build a LRT. WHat about sheppard? There are all sorts of people over there not happy that they are getting a LRT. Should we not build anything over there?

WEll then these people that will drive if forced to transfer, let them drive and be stuck in congestions. And what proof is there that every time people need to transfer 1x they loose 25% of potential users? I use to transfer 2x every morning and evening for years. How laze can people be. Toronto has 2.6M - this is not millions like you are making it out to be which is like 5M

 

[Palma]

so does that mean you are ok with the 1.2 billion dollar figure to get the lrt to bloor? Should the lrt randomly end at Eglinton? theres a 700 million dollar difference in cost and if you add every corridor such as keele dufferin pape you are simply multiplying the costs. Maybe the lines should end at Eglinton, but I always thought network connectivity and less transfers was vital to a proper transit network. I also cant see any of these areas houses ever becoming affluent if the areas are never serviced by transit. Lets face facts most people dont want their houses faces main streets. Combine that with no transit and you have a problem. Personally I like to fix problems. BTW paying the people properly for their houses isnt the same as kicking them out of their houses.

They can become more affluent as the areas further south and east become more and more expensive and people decide to live a bit further west so they can remain in the city instead of having to go go further north.

Have you seen Christie Ave? There are houses on that street and those houses are not cheap. In fact if you really look there are houses pretty well on many major streets that have bus service in Toronto - Weston Road, Keele St, Dufferin, Jane, Landsdown, Lawrence Ave, Islington, Kiping, Sheppard (more so only in the west end near Weston Rd due to all those condos that replaced houses east of Dufferin St), Davenport, Dupont, Ossington, Dovercourt, etc. What do you suggest - get rid of all these houses to make room for condos and LRT? And why can't we consider streetcars in mixed traffic for Jane and Keele St.? Why is it ok for buses to travel in mixed traffic but somehow streetcars cannot. I cannot understand nor do I accept the "well if there is an accident streetcars cannot move out of the way, are traffic accidents happening every 5 mn?. And again its the cars that cause delays not streetcars. Even on heavy traffic like Dufferin if people are ok with buses mixed with cars there is no difference with streetcars. Or perhaps what they can do is from 6-9am no cars allowed on the streetcar tracks and again from 3-6pm. This will make it less expensive. They do this with buses north of Sheppard on Dufferin so why not with streetcars south of Dufferin St or Keel or Jane, etc

 

[sixrings]

They can become more affluent as the areas further south and east become more and more expensive and people decide to live a bit further west so they can remain in the city instead of having to go go further north.

Have you seen Christie Ave? There are houses on that street and those houses are not cheap. In fact if you really look there are houses pretty well on many major streets that have bus service in Toronto - Weston Road, Keele St, Dufferin, Jane, Landsdown, Lawrence Ave, Islington, Kiping, Sheppard (more so only in the west end near Weston Rd due to all those condos that replaced houses east of Dufferin St), Davenport, Dupont, Ossington, Dovercourt, etc. What do you suggest - get rid of all these houses to make room for condos and LRT? And why can't we consider streetcars in mixed traffic for Jane and Keele St.? Why is it ok for buses to travel in mixed traffic but somehow streetcars cannot. I cannot understand nor do I accept the "well if there is an accident streetcars cannot move out of the way, are traffic accidents happening every 5 mn?. And again its the cars that cause delays not streetcars. Even on heavy traffic like Dufferin if people are ok with buses mixed with cars there is no difference with streetcars. Or perhaps what they can do is from 6-9am no cars allowed on the streetcar tracks and again from 3-6pm. This will make it less expensive. They do this with buses north of Sheppard on Dufferin so why not with streetcars south of Dufferin St or Keel or Jane, etc

My preference would be to put street cars on all roads that are to narrow for a lrt and lrt where it fits. Unfortunately people seem to be anti street car. Hopefully the new streetcars change people's opinion. For instance annette Dupont richmond adelaide front street dufferin should all have street cars.

Btw if there are 1 million houses in toronto and I was suggesting buying 1000 houses then that is in effect moving .01 percent of the population. Let's not get over dramatic about such a number.

And christie street is not a good example because it doesn't have the potential to be one long route.

 

[W. K. Lis]

My preference would be to put street cars on all roads that are to narrow for a lrt and lrt where it fits. Unfortunately people seem to be anti street car. Hopefully the new streetcars change people's opinion. For instance annette Dupont richmond adelaide front street dufferin should all have street cars.

Btw if there are 1 million houses in toronto and I was suggesting buying 1000 houses then that is in effect moving .01 percent of the population. Let's not get over dramatic about such a number.

And christie street is not a good example because it doesn't have the potential to be one long route.

Mt. Pleasant used to have streetcars from St. Clair to Eglinton, 24 hours a day with frequent service during the day. When it was replaced by buses, service is now every 30 minutes during the day, and none after 7:21 PM.

Dupont used have 24 hour streetcar service east of Christie Street.

Generally, whenever streetcar service is replaced by buses, service goes downhill, unless the route is somehow extended to serve new areas. The 161 Rogers Road bus was extended, after it replaced the Rogers Road streetcar, but only improved a little bit because it was had extensions from both ends of the old terminal loops.

 

[k10ery]

i looked up the old jane lrt reports and found out that it had to be tunneled starting south of wilson. Thats one long tunnel which basically means is financially a nightmare. Because of this i suggested keele since its wide enough north of eglinton to have a lrt without much problem. I do agree with lawrence and wilson getting a LRT as well but still think we need to find somewhere in the map to place some n/s routes otherwise we will just funnel so many riders onto the university and yonge lines.

There's no doubt you're right. Expropriation and surface alignment makes financial sense in a lot of cases. Houses in this area sell for about $400,000, and there's probably about 100 of them per linear kilometre of road. So YOU COULD PAY PEOPLE $1 MILLION PER HOUSE and still deliver transit at about half the cost of tunneling.

How many people are going to be so horrified at the idea of accepting $1 million to move out of a $400K house? The real problem is these community groups and BIAs that have no real financial stake in the matter, and whip up opposition because they are advancing an agenda of their own.

Super-generous compensation, plus expropriation in a few necessary cases, is the way we ought to go here.

 

[nfitz]

Mt. Pleasant used to have streetcars from St. Clair to Eglinton, 24 hours a day with frequent service during the day. When it was replaced by buses, service is now every 30 minutes during the day, and none after 7:21 PM.

Dupont used have 24 hour streetcar service east of Christie Street.

In both cases though, many of the riders would be a relatively short walk to subway lines. I'd think that passengers would have been less after the Yonge and Bloor subways opened, and especially after Dupont station opened.

Are they are any good examples of other former streetcar lines that weren't effected in the same way? Parliament? Sherbourne?

 

[Palma]

My preference would be to put street cars on all roads that are to narrow for a lrt and lrt where it fits. Unfortunately people seem to be anti street car. Hopefully the new streetcars change people's opinion. For instance annette Dupont richmond adelaide front street dufferin should all have street cars.

Btw if there are 1 million houses in toronto and I was suggesting buying 1000 houses then that is in effect moving .01 percent of the population. Let's not get over dramatic about such a number.

And christie street is not a good example because it doesn't have the potential to be one long route.

Buying 1000 houses in the city may not seem like a lot but in the central core it makes a difference. Once you start it won't stop. Its different if you buy 1000 houses in the suburbs but in the city it would eventually lead to the lost of all residential houses and all you would have are condos. Perhaps a bit too dramatic. But I know a family who moved back to Barcelona from Toronto. Here they were renting a house at Lawrence near Royal York. But the wife said in Barcelona they want to live in the city so they will need to live in an apartment (condo). I could see that happening in Toronto to at some point in the future - to live in the city there wont be any houses just condos whether high rise or low rise and if you want a house its suburb time. i am sure once a upon a time Barcelona had houses to in the city core.

 

[Palma]

Mt. Pleasant used to have streetcars from St. Clair to Eglinton, 24 hours a day with frequent service during the day. When it was replaced by buses, service is now every 30 minutes during the day, and none after 7:21 PM.

Dupont used have 24 hour streetcar service east of Christie Street.

Generally, whenever streetcar service is replaced by buses, service goes downhill, unless the route is somehow extended to serve new areas. The 161 Rogers Road bus was extended, after it replaced the Rogers Road streetcar, but only improved a little bit because it was had extensions from both ends of the old terminal loops.

Well this proves that people are not anti streetcar if service goes down when buses replace streetcars. So why is this information not out there in the general public domain and why does the TTC not place streetcars on routes like Dufferin St and Mt Pleasant, etc

 

[Rainforest]

^ It is not the replacement of streetcars with buses caused the decline of service. The root cause is declining demand on certain routes; that caused both the removal of streetcars and the decline of service.

The Queen / Lakeshore West streetcar was not replaced with buses, but the service declined dramatically anyway. The route got caught up in a vicious cycle: declining demand caused service cuts; service cut together with growing congestion caused long wait times and irregular service, and that pushed even more riders away from this line.

I don't see any good reason for placing streetcars on Mount Pleasant. If the demand for buses is so low, there won't be much demand for streetcars, either. That line would become an operational money pit, as the fixed costs of tracks etc will be divided by a small number of riders.

Dufferin might be a candidate for streetcars; the present ridership is high, requires a very frequent bus service, and the TTC can potentially save on operational costs by using larger vehicles (streetcars). However, we have to divide the capital costs of installing streetcars by the expected yearly operational savings, and see how long it would take to justify the investment, and whether investing those funds in other corridors would be more effective.