Transit City Plan

[Rainforest]

Why is it ok for buses to travel in mixed traffic but somehow streetcars cannot. I cannot understand nor do I accept the "well if there is an accident streetcars cannot move out of the way, are traffic accidents happening every 5 mn?.

Streetcars can and do travel in mixed traffic; but they tend to suffer from traffic delays more than buses. Two main issues: 1) Unlike buses, streetcars cannot leapfrog each other. If one streetcar is delayed a little, it tends to pick more riders, then it takes longer to load / unload, and gets delayed even more. The following streetcar gets fewer riders, takes less time to load / unload, and gets ahead of schedule until it goes directly behind the delayed streetcar. If two buses are in this situation, then the follower can leap ahead and distribute the load more evenly. 2) Larger vehicles (streetcars) mean that TTC can get away with lower service frequency. If the preceding bus service was not very frequent in the first place, and regular headways cannot be maintained, then the wait times can become unreasonably long.

Or perhaps what they can do is from 6-9am no cars allowed on the streetcar tracks and again from 3-6pm. This will make it less expensive.

Such arrangement exists already on some streetcar routes. For example, sections of King have the central (streetcar) lanes designated as HOV.

But the effectiveness of that is limited, due to obstacles in the outer lanes forcing the general traffic into the central lanes. On routes like Dufferin, you will always have some parked cars in the outer lanes; many houses have no driveways or garages, and the residents apply for permits to park on the street.

They do this with buses north of Sheppard on Dufferin so why not with streetcars south of Dufferin St or Keel or Jane, etc

Allen Road / Dufferin north of Sheppard is 6 or 7 lanes wide. The outer lanes are designated as bus-only at all times, not just 6-9 or 3-6; and they are rarely blocked since parking is available off-street.

 

[Palma]

Well this bunching up of streetcars then means there needs to be a better system in place so that it can be avoided. How hard can that be? On Dufferin I used to notice there was on street parking some years ago but I have noticed more parking pads in front of houses. I am referring to the area between Rogers Rd and St Clair. Maybe thats what they need to do - allow all those houses to get a parking pad in front. If those homes were ever renovated they could build a house with garage so at least the cars could be parked inside

 

[W. K. Lis]

Well this bunching up of streetcars then means there needs to be a better system in place so that it can be avoided. How hard can that be? On Dufferin I used to notice there was on street parking some years ago but I have noticed more parking pads in front of houses. I am referring to the area between Rogers Rd and St Clair. Maybe thats what they need to do - allow all those houses to get a parking pad in front. If those homes were ever renovated they could build a house with garage so at least the cars could be parked inside

Parking pads mean visitors cannot park in front of the driveway, or they'll get a parking ticket. It has to be open 24 hours a day, even if there is a vehicle on the parking pad. Unfortunately, there is little room to put in a parking lay-by, which would keep the roadwayy clear with 2 lanes of traffic each way. In the more suburban areas, they can add parking lay-bys by taking the space needed from the parking lots. You can see parking lay-bys on the Queensway west of Park Lawn and east of Islington, as examples.

 

[MisterF]

^ It is not the replacement of streetcars with buses caused the decline of service. The root cause is declining demand on certain routes; that caused both the removal of streetcars and the decline of service.

That's not entirely true. All things being equal, streetcars tend to attract more riders than buses.

 

[gweed123]

That's not entirely true. All things being equal, streetcars tend to attract more riders than buses.

This is true, but speed and frequency have a bigger impact. I'd rather take a faster bus than a slower streetcar. But if speed and frequency would be equal, then yes comfort is the deciding factor.

 

[Rainforest]

That's not entirely true. All things being equal, streetcars tend to attract more riders than buses.

Are there any statistical data to back that?

I personally don't feel attracted to streetcars more than to buses. When I take transit, I care about the travel time, frequency, reliability, and the conditions inside the vehicle (crowded or not). A bus every 7 minutes is better for me than a streetcar every 10 minutes.

I prefer streetcar only if it has ROW advantage, like on St Clair or Spadina.

Is it possible that the statistics has it backwards? (Routes with inherently higher ridership potential are selected for the installation / retention of streetcar service, and then it seems that streetcars attract more riders?)

 

[CDL.TO]

Are there any statistical data to back that?

Yes, there has been research done that studied that question and concluded that people prefer streetcars.

From a more casual perspective, there are also several cases where buses have been replaced by streetcars and vice-versa. The streetcars have pretty consistently had higher ridership.

That said, level of service and speed are almost certainly more important factors than rubber vs. rail.

 

[Palma]

Yes, there has been research done that studied that question and concluded that people prefer streetcars.

From a more casual perspective, there are also several cases where buses have been replaced by streetcars and vice-versa. The streetcars have pretty consistently had higher ridership.

That said, level of service and speed are almost certainly more important factors than rubber vs. rail.

Speed may be more an important factor if you live in the suburbs since it must take longer to get from one place to another

 

[CDL.TO]

Speed may be more an important factor if you live in the suburbs since it must take longer to get from one place to another

I'm not sure about that. Speed is relative. It takes me 35 mins to use the TTC from Cabbagetown to my job when I could walk it in 45-50 mins, or take a cab for 8 mins.

There's a good impetus not to use transit when it's 4 times slower than driving and only slightly faster than walking.

 

[Palma]

I'm not sure about that. Speed is relative. It takes me 35 mins to use the TTC from Cabbagetown to my job when I could walk it in 45-50 mins, or take a cab for 8 mins.

There's a good impetus not to use transit when it's 4 times slower than driving and only slightly faster than walking.

I don;t see how 35 min is long. Take a book to read and do some sight seeing along the way.

 

[unimaginative2]

I don;t see how 35 min is long. Take a book to read and do some sight seeing along the way.

That's ludicrous...if transit is barely faster than walking, it's far too slow. Period. Is he supposed sightsee the same thing twice a day, five times a week? And it's not like you can read a book on a packed streetcar. A lot of people who talk about transit in these threads seem to ride it only for leisure trips. Sure, it's fine to go slow on a Sunday trip out to the beach. Doing it twice a day, every day is much more exhausting. Over an hour on a packed streetcar every day is not supposed to be the downtown "live close to work" lifestyle. Not to mention the fact that the frequent unreliability of the TTC's downtown lines means that you have to budget far more than the travel time, lest you arrive late for work.

CDL's story highlights the dramatic difference between surface and rapid transit in a city. To go a couple kilometres from Cabbagetown to another point downtown takes 35 minutes. That's the same amount of time it would take to ride from North York to the financial district on the subway.

 

[AKS]

I don;t see how 35 min is long. Take a book to read and do some sight seeing along the way.

I'm in agreement with transit downtown. It's so slow that walking is a better alternative. If it takes you about the same time to walk than wait for the bus and get on the bus to get to a location. You might as well walk it. You might even get there quicker walking than taking the bus if the bus is late or takes a long time to wait for it. The best alternative for people living downtown is biking. Why take a streetcar you have to wait and it goes so slowly that it takes 15 minutes to get to short distances that you can walk in 15-20 min. Or if you bike, it takes 5-10 min. Which will you choose? For example from Bremner and Spadina to Queens Quay stn. It takes about 10-15 min to get there plus waiting time.

 

[car4041]

Why take a streetcar you have to wait and it goes so slowly that it takes 15 minutes to get to short distances that you can walk in 15-20 min. Or if you bike, it takes 5-10 min. Which will you choose? For example from Bremner and Spadina to Queens Quay stn. It takes about 10-15 min to get there plus waiting time.

More like 7-8 minutes, and if you walk it you'll be passed by several streetcars. The only time you can walk as fast as the streetcar is in rush-hour gridlock on a route that runs in mixed traffic (in which case walking is faster than all motor vehicles). In general the streetcar is much faster than walking.

 

[nfitz]

I have to say though, given I commute through or near (depending which way I go) Cabbagetown every day on streetcar or bus, I have to ponder what trip would only take 45 minutes to walk, but 35 minutes on transit. The only thing that comes remotely to mind is to Queens Quay/Simcoe, which given the state of the Yonge subway and Harbourfront streetcar is a problem.

Still, I don't see what this has to do with Transit City. We're talking less than 10 km/hr here ... I don't think that is what any of the proposed LRT lines are supposed to run at.

 

[unimaginative2]

More like 7-8 minutes, and if you walk it you'll be passed by several streetcars. The only time you can walk as fast as the streetcar is in rush-hour gridlock on a route that runs in mixed traffic (in which case walking is faster than all motor vehicles). In general the streetcar is much faster than walking.

I've routinely been beaten by people who are walking when I take the Spadina streetcar, especially if the bunch of four streetcar takes a while to arrive but sometimes even if they arrive quickly.