Transit City Plan

[Jonny5]

I disagree. In my view, there are 5 stages that any transit project goes through:

1) Pipe-dream: Talked about, but that's about it.
2) Planned: It has been put into either an OP or into a TMP, has been briefly studied.
3) Funded: A funding arrangement has been determined, and a timeline has been prepared. More detailed engineering and planning studies begin.
4) Construction: Money comes through, and shovels actually get into the ground.
5) Completed: Open for business.

Until a project hits Stage 3, in my books it might as well be in Stage 1. Only half of Transit City ever reached Stage 3, and about 1/4 of it will likely reach Stage 4.

But I think you are actually agreeing with what I said. Until the shovels hit the ground, a plan is irrelevant. We have multiple governments and agencies churning out plans with no ability to fund them. We have other governments an agencies with money starting construction on plans that go through minimal or no consultation. Another problem is nonsensical plans are drawn up all the time just to appear as though something is being done.

It's possible for every Transit City project to jump to your stage 4 tomorrow. As long that is possible, it's not dead. And it's going to be possible until a single organization is responsible for analysis, design and implementation and funding of transportation policy.

While I always look with amusement at the the US for electing every single position they can (some states are worse than others), I think we could elect more positions here than we do now. An elected body responsible for transportation policy and funding, similar in function to Translink, could do wonders with a proper mandate and the proper tools.

 

[44 North]

The Sheppard East LRT included provisions for extensions to the Zoo. However, with the Zoo on the cutting block, even that leaves out any target for a Subway or a LRT to reach, along which the transit users in Scarborough would have used, but are now without anything east of the STC.

That's the problem. People in Scarborough are selling out people in Scarborough. What about everything east of STC? We're hearing all the vocal homeowners in defense of a Sheppard subway, but we're not hearing from the 200,000 people who would directly benefit from the SELRT and Malvern LRT. Many of the city's NE neighbourhoods are poor and severely disconnected. But it seems the only people who matter are the ones that have homes with driveways, and take the time to call Ford.

This Sheppard nonsense is maddening. TTIL claims that it will cost $300 Million just to come up with a plan on how to find/spend $5 Billion. People can quote Network 2011 all they want, that doesn't mean the Sheppard Subway is needed. Hell, even when that plan came out, planners knew that HRT subways would be too damned expensive.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Transit City
YIMBY

Yes In My BackYard

 

[Dan416]

I think you guys are beating a dead horse.

 

[nfitz]

I think you guys are beating a dead horse.

You should be more respectful of His Worship.

 

[44 North]

I think you guys are beating a dead horse.

Funny, that's a phrase I'd use to describe those that want to revive the costly mistake of the Sheppard Subway.

 

[Justin10000]

Funny, that's a phrase I'd use to describe those that want to revive the costly mistake of the Sheppard Subway.

Ba-ZING!

 

[Dan416]

Ba-ZING!

You think that was worthy of a bazinga? Erm, no.

 

[gweed123]

At this point, anything on Sheppard is a dead horse. If McGuinty gets re-elected, we could see something happening there in the next 4 years. If Hudak gets elected, it'll be at least 2016 before we see anything happen there.

Like Eglinton did after the cancellation of the Eglinton Subway, Sheppard is going to have to wait its turn until the cycle comes around again.

 

[rbt]

At this point, anything on Sheppard is a dead horse. If McGuinty gets re-elected, we could see something happening there in the next 4 years. If Hudak gets elected, it'll be at least 2016 before we see anything happen there.

I don't think McGuinty can find the money. Priorities before Sheppard include a number of GO projects which he has promised, Hamilton, Peel Region, and possibly York Region LRT projects; and Toronto is going to need $2B in capital monies just for day to day operations.

He would need to find $10B in the budget over 5 years to fully fund Sheppard and find the heart to do a favour for Ford who negotiated a document stating the City would do that work itself.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Any why do that when TC can be built in full for 10 Billion.

 

[leopetr]

The Sheppard East LRT included provisions for extensions to the Zoo. However, with the Zoo on the cutting block, even that leaves out any target for a Subway or a LRT to reach, along which the transit users in Scarborough would have used, but are now without anything east of the STC.

UofT Scarborough could really use something. It's east of STC.

 

[Northern Magus]

UofT Scarborough could really use something. It's east of STC.

Hey, Finch West could really use something. The Zoo could really use something. The airport could really use something. Queen's Quay East could really use something. Don Mills could really use something.

So where's all the money going to come from? Not the private sector, not Rob Ford, not Stephen Harper, and definitely not Tim Hudak. They're going to be too busy cutting their own revenues while simultaneously cutting programs and services.

Like Eglinton did after the cancellation of the Eglinton Subway, Sheppard is going to have to wait its turn until the cycle comes around again.

Yep. However, it may very well be that while HRT is far too expensive for the private sector to bear, at 1/3 of that price building LRT could actually be feasible for them to do.

That said, having LRT from Scarborough to the current HRT's eastern terminus, then HRT to Yonge, and then LRT westbound from there makes absolutely no sense. Nor does spending hundreds of millions to retrofit the current HRT line into LRT.

Which makes me think that at some point there will be LRT on one side of the current line and an HRT extension on the other. But when the HRT eventually comes to pass may not be for another couple of decades. The Queen/Downtown line will likely be a far bigger priority when choices have to be made later this decade.

Any why do that when TC can be built in full for 10 Billion.

I'll float a theory here: the only way that could probably happen is if city council passed a resolution after a McGuinty victory on Oct 6th. If a council resolution to revive Transit City was passed within the next 8 or 10 months (while Sheppard turns increasingly into a no-go proposition) the province could very well decide that they're bound to respect that decision.

If we have a weak mayor system, notwithstanding his symbolic position and directly elected status, the mayor's voice is quite arguably just one of many on Council. And just like Parliament, it's Council's will that is supreme.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

What strike me as odd is this - everyone wanted to build transit (of whatever kind) in the city but nobody dares to put the issue of funding these plans to a referendum - say, a levy of what, $100, 150 per year/household to be used exclusively for new transit capital projects. That's how the first subway got built - and I think we might be a point in time where there is a willingness to swallow that bitter pill. I think the public deserves better than the spin claiming that we can have our cake (lower taxes) and eat it too (better transit).

AoD

 

[Filip]

What strike me as odd is this - everyone wanted to build transit (of whatever kind) in the city but nobody dares to put the issue of funding these plans to a referendum - say, a levy of what, $100, 150 per year/household to be used exclusively for new transit capital projects. That's how the first subway got built - and I think we might be a point in time where there is a willingness to swallow that bitter pill. I think the public deserves better than the spin claiming that we can have our cake (lower taxes) and eat it too (better transit).

AoD

It is odd that hasn't been proposed. I see a lot of Torontonians, even exclusive drivers, supporting this levy. I most definitely would, if and only if I knew it would be used exclusively for capital expansion projects.