Transit City Plan

[AlvinofDiaspar]

That said, it doesn't get you a lot; assuming 1 million households, $150/year only nets you $150M - it will take half a century to pay for any single decent subway expansion (or a quarter, with the least forward thinking, most optimistic P3 schemes scaled to the lowest level of service). Not quite sufficient for full lines like DRL or Eglinton.

AoD

 

[Filip]

That said, it doesn't get you a lot; assuming 1 million households, $150/year only nets you $150M - it will take half a century to pay for any single decent subway expansion (or a quarter, with the least forward thinking, most optimistic P3 schemes scaled to the lowest level of service). Not quite sufficient for full lines like DRL or Eglinton.

AoD

Add some upper level of government funding and we can talk!

 

[Filip]

I'm actually more partial for a Golden Horseshoe tax levy. That way it can be applied to all households, not just property owners as it would be applied by the province.

Basically whoever lives in GO's catchment has to pay. That way we can improve transit across the board.

 

[Northern Magus]

An interesting idea, but I don't think there's any way our current crop of faux Tea Partiers would ever let it pass. Like road pricing, it actually makes sense.

 

[gweed123]

I don't think McGuinty can find the money. Priorities before Sheppard include a number of GO projects which he has promised, Hamilton, Peel Region, and possibly York Region LRT projects; and Toronto is going to need $2B in capital monies just for day to day operations.

He would need to find $10B in the budget over 5 years to fully fund Sheppard and find the heart to do a favour for Ford who negotiated a document stating the City would do that work itself.

As they should be funded before Sheppard. As far as I'm concerned, the only municipal projects that should be built before all-day electrifed GO are the Eglinton-Scarbrough LRT, the Durham Region BRT, the Hurontario LRT, the Mississuaga BRT, and the B Line LRT in Hamilton.

 

[gweed123]

I'm actually more partial for a Golden Horseshoe tax levy. That way it can be applied to all households, not just property owners as it would be applied by the province.

Basically whoever lives in GO's catchment has to pay. That way we can improve transit across the board.

Very good idea. I posted a comment on an article on the Star today basically saying that Road Tolls are the answer we're looking for to the budget crisis. A $3 toll on the Gardiner and DVP from 6:30-9:30am and 4-7pm would generate between $900 million and $1.01 billion per year for the city (12 lanes of traffic x 1800 vphpl x $3 x 6hrs x 260 days/year). That's enough to plug the budget hole, and pay for around 4km of LRT per year.

Let the City fund LRT (or at least do a 1/3 or 2/3 cost sharing agreement like Ottawa or Kitchener-Waterloo are getting), and leave the Province to fund GO expansion.

 

[Northern Magus]

I'm actually more partial for a Golden Horseshoe tax levy. That way it can be applied to all households, not just property owners as it would be applied by the province.

Basically whoever lives in GO's catchment has to pay. That way we can improve transit across the board.

$250 per year x 3 million households, and we're starting to get there. But every level of government may actually need to cumulatively be contributing a lot more than that for all the work that will need to be done by 2030.

Which makes me wonder whether the old DLR plan should be built as an overground, and the Queen and King streetcars simply be given exclusive lanes. Similar results for 30% of the cost.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Road tolls should be part of the solution, but not the only solution to the revenue issue - a household levy, increased parking fees and other sources should also be considered. Region-wide would be a preferable route to go, though that would mean dealing with a zillion municipalities on that one to craft a coherent strategy. That could be tough.

AoD

 

[Northern Magus]

Only if not done by a regional government. (albeit setting one up could be tough)

 

[gweed123]

Road tolls should be part of the solution, but not the only solution to the revenue issue - a household levy, increased parking fees and other sources should also be considered. Region-wide would be a preferable route to go, though that would mean dealing with a zillion municipalities on that one to craft a coherent strategy. That could be tough.

AoD

Good point. I say let the municipalities deal with road tolls. Although Toronto would probably be the only one to actually implement them, they would still do a great job of raising some revenue. If the toll is set up on the Gardiner just west of the Humber Bridge (right before the split with Lakeshore), and on the DVP just north of York Mills, it would primarily be tolling the 905 dwellers who work in the inner 416. This, coupled with some decent expansion in GO service, would create a pretty big shift away from the car.

And I think the best way to fund transit at the regional level is through a consumption tax as opposed to a general tax. Add a GTA gas tax, increase parking rates, add an extra 1% to the HST on all vehicle purchases, or give municipal tax rebates for those who can provide proof of purchase of transit passes.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Only if not done by a regional government. (albeit setting one up could be tough)

That depends on a provincial government with vision - I suggested municipal levy as a way to sidestep the lack of the forementioned.

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

gweed:

Personally I'd prefer the city highways tolled at rush hour only. Not sure how much that'd net though.

A consumption tax would be a good way to raise money, though it would have some nasty consequences if not implemented at a region wide level (think cross-border shopping).

AoD

 

[andrewpmk]

Very good idea. I posted a comment on an article on the Star today basically saying that Road Tolls are the answer we're looking for to the budget crisis. A $3 toll on the Gardiner and DVP from 6:30-9:30am and 4-7pm would generate between $900 million and $1.01 billion per year for the city (12 lanes of traffic x 1800 vphpl x $3 x 6hrs x 260 days/year). That's enough to plug the budget hole, and pay for around 4km of LRT per year.

Let the City fund LRT (or at least do a 1/3 or 2/3 cost sharing agreement like Ottawa or Kitchener-Waterloo are getting), and leave the Province to fund GO expansion.

The tolls need to apply at a lower rate during off peak hours as well, and any toll on the Gardiner should also apply on Lake Shore east of the Humber River. Everyone knows that traffic jams on the Gardiner and the DVP occur outside rush hour. Also several of the 400 series highways ought to be included in the scheme if the province will allow it, particularly the 401 between the 427 and DVP/404 which has very severe traffic congestion.

 

[Tulse]

Tolls on existing roads are political non-starters. Heck, any tolls are likely politically impossible, and tolling existing roads doubly so.

 

[gweed123]

gweed:

Personally I'd prefer the city highways tolled at rush hour only. Not sure how much that'd net though.

The numbers I quoted were for rush hour only. And I agree, tolls should only be during rush hour.

A consumption tax would be a good way to raise money, though it would have some nasty consequences if not implemented at a region wide level (think cross-border shopping).

AoD

For large purchases, maybe, but the reality is that the next major centres outside of the GTHA would be Niagara Falls, Kitchener, Peterborough, and Port Hope. For daily purchases, I can't really see people driving to those places just to spend money. For large rare purchases, maybe.