Transit City Plan

[Calrissian]

I could say the same thing about you buddy, but that's probably why you're leaving... Can't get employed with your 'skills' (or lack thereof) in this city.

Only an absolute idiot would say that killing Transit City is the end of the world (or Toronto). I didn't see any of you get all up in arms when Miller decided to scrap the Sheppard subway extension which had its EA and engineering partially done in order to replace it by a streetcar.

Pinko Liberals like you (and most of this board) make me sick to my stomach.

Hmm. Its not about left, or right, its about proper transit for all citizens. Something you don't get because you just don't listen or learn. This is why you will never be anymore than what your limited self has displayed with your really poor poor posts.

I enjoy the factual well thought out and crafted posts of nfitz, rainforest, environTO, metroman, Asterix and a few others.. you should pay attention to them. Its not about politics. There's more sides to transit than "subways! subways! subways!"

Oh, and I'm moving to London because the company I work for has offices there...

 

[jje1000]

An interesting video (posted in May!) that compares the construction time for Transit City compared to a hypothetical subway replacement plan.

Wished we could have the best of both worlds, but apparently we can't!

http://299bloorcallcontrol.com/post/571541110/today-toronto-mayoral-candidate-rocco-rossi

 

[Calrissian]

I spoke earlier that a compromise could have saved Transit City. Lots of anti TC would have been for it if they would have listened to suggestions and compromised.

SELRT
-800m stop spacing with a 85 bus for local stops
-True signal prority
-Route to STC

ECLRT
-Etobicoke don't want it in the street? Why not consider Richview corridor or elevated?
-Laird to Keele? Don Mills to Jane made more sense

You my friend belongs in the TC AS IS with no compromise camp...and this is why your side failed
My way or the highway attitude from Miller and Giambrone=REFUSING TO COMPROMISE

It's that attitude that killed TC

DIdn't the SELRT have wider space stops at first, until all the open houses and input from the locals to make it have closer stops like the current bus? With all the open houses for input, how is this being shoved down everyone's throat? They should take china's approach and just say "F you" we're building this, you don't like it? Take him out and shoot him.

It seems to be the only way things get done.

 

[Ed Drass]

Transit-less City?

So... hypothetically:

1. A shortened, but subway, Eglinton line (say from Keele to Laird)
2. A Sheppard extension to STC
3. A Danforth extension to STC

...
Suppose Stintz can't save even a stub of Eglinton? (The Post has McGuinty saying the city must live within its funding envelope; and do you really see Ford fronting big transit cash?)

And over what period of time for these subways? 8-10 years?
Where does that leave today's riders along Sheppard (east of the proposed subway route), the rest of Scarborough -- and all of Etobicoke for that matter?

I'm having trouble cataloguing where in Toronto transit riders are going to get improved speed and capacity by the end of this council term. Those stuck on long-haul buses can expect increasing traffic in that period.
Synchronized signalization may mitigate this, but by how much? And since Ford aimed this promise at motorists, does transit priority survive or expand?

As for express buses -- Ford did call for them, without details. Presumably this is akin to the Transit City Bus plan, which proposes modest improvements without -- IIRC -- any BRT elements. And in the world of suburban drivers, On-street BRT = War on the Car, no?

"Express" buses without traffic-free lanes or signal help are only marginally faster than "local" and hardly worth the name. A TTC refocused on subways and future ridership would need even more motivation to do anything for existing riders.

-Ed

 

[ShonTron]

Express buses, even without lanes, can work great. The 190 is a great success, and was followed up with the 199. Sheppard East was a flawed plan, but the one pushed through. Eglinton is the one I'd be very sad to see junked by Ford's dangerous agenda, and would be amazing, even with some tweaks between Laird and Don Mills and west of Jane.

The marketing and communications were very poor. People are stuck with images of St. Clair and Spadina, and all the TTC did for external publications was billboards with Matt Blackett's subway-style buttons, unless you bothered to go to a PIC or wade through the net.

You'll also notice it's mostly downtowners that are storming the barricades this week. The suburbs, who would benefit, seem almost indifferent in comparison.

The TTC's own site has some vauge wordy of TC saying it is "...an exciting initiative that will revolutionize transportation across Toronto". That is a lot of words to say almost nothing.

No one properly explained to the masses what Transit City was, though enough people outside the transit geek and downtown politico communities got Eglinton-Crosstown fine. The plan was also top-down, not specifically in the Miller platform in 2006, and consultations only started once the decisions on routes and surface LRT (except Eglinton, of course) was decided by politicans and beaucrats.

An endless argument can take place about the merits of the plan, but the communications and planning were a clusterfu*k. That easily allowed Ford to run on an anti Transit City platform, only with Joey Pants with the ubiquitous "save Transit City" button standing up for it.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Express buses, even without lanes, can work great. The 190 is a great success, and was followed up with the 199. Sheppard East was a flawed plan, but the one pushed through. Eglinton is the one, even with some tweaks between Laird and Don Mills and west of Jane.

The marketing and communications were very poor. People are stuck with images of St. Clair and Spadina, and all the TTC did for external publications was billboards with Matt Blackett's subway-style buttons, unless you bothered to go to a PIC or wade through the net.

You'll also notice its mostly downtowners that are storming the barricades this week. The suburbs, who would benefit, seem almost indifferent in comparison.

The TTC's own site has some vauge wordy "exciting initiative that will revolutionize transportation across across Toronto". That is a lot of words to say almost nothing.

No one properly explained to the masses what Transit City was, though enough people outside the transit geek and downtown politico communities got Eglinton-Crosstown fine. The plan was also top-down, not specifically in the Miller platform in 2006, and consultations only started once the decisions on routes and surface LRT (except Eglinton, of course) was decided by politicans and beaucrats.

An endless argument can take place about the merits of the plan, but the communications and planning were a clusterfu*k. That easily allowed Ford to run on an anti Transit City platform, only with Joey Pants with the ubiquitous "save Transit City" button standing up for it.

A good post, and one that I think highlights some of the communications problems that got really bad toward the end of Miller's term.

For the most part, though, I think the only kind of person who ever cares about transit plans beyond vague ideas of what's promised during election campaigns are downtowners who geek out on urban issues.

 

[Filip]

But you didn't deal with it, and cried on and on like a baby that we all had to read.. and still do...

My side didn't lose. If this plays out according to reports in halting TC, then the city lost.

I most definitely dealt with it.. It wasn't like I went protesting to get my way, unlike... Nevermind.. Tomorrow will be an amusing day.

As ShonTron PERFECTLY stated.. Only the downtown dwellers are getting up in arms about the impending cancellation of Transit City.. The suburbanites, who are receiving this great gift from the demi-God Miller, are wholly indifferent. The city didn't lose, because the affected party doesn't care.

 

[drum118]

So only those who agree with you have 'crafted' posts... I'm surprised you include nfitz in there as he's the single worst one on your LRTista council... Most of his posts are nonsensical ramblings about LRT bordering on amusing.

By the by, I'm doing quite well in life, thanks.. Interned in one of our big banks, lived all over Europe, I speak 5 languages and I'm on my way to graduating with Summa Cum Laude honours. Sorry for being against Transit City, I guess that makes me stupid.

No it make you a jackass with a thumb on your nose waving your hand.

By the way, I'm not a liberal as I wear strips since I change parties based on what been offer by them in the first place.

One type of system is not a fit all and it a blend of them that services ""ALL"" the people, not a ::FEW::

Running Subways to a ""MALL"" to service a few riders as well not help to build an Avenue is a waste of everyone money.

So when you graduate, make sure the door hits you hard as you entrer the real world as you are going to need that hit to get ahead in life.

 

[lead82]

What does speaking 5 languages, living in Europe and graduating with Summa Cum Laude honours have to do with transit in Toronto?

Toronto is not Europe. Suburban Toronto does not have the same densities of Europe or the same travel patterns. While I'm not a super hard booster of Transit City, the reality is that Toronto hasn't learned it's lessons and is continuing to repeat past mistakes. The issue is that transit planning does not exist in Toronto. It is mostly driven by politics. That means lines are built on the whims of politicians. That's why we don't have the same kind of network that the European cities have. We never will. The reason is that we don't build subways where they should be build: Downtown and dense mid-town corridors (ie. Eglinton). Instead, we build them up to the empty fields of Vaughan and turn our subway system into a commuter rail system because commuter rail in the GTA sucks.

Money for transit doesn't grow in trees in North America, and in Toronto, a city with the least subsidized system we have even less money. Transit City was an approach to build a NETWORK of lines, and not just build increments of stubs and extensions here and there. For all it's flaws, it did have the potential to offer decent travel in the suburbs where densities are lower and building subways is very expensive.

With Rob Ford in office, we not only wont be getting Transit City, we will be getting absolutely NOTHING except for the subway extension to Vaughan. Ford wont be able to build the Sheppard subway east or west in 4 year team. We simply don't have enough money to pay for all the subways we want. The people on this forum are very passionate about transit and realize these short-comings. So lets not debate about who is smart or dumb.

The issue is that we are all concerned about the lack of action on transit in this city, and unfortunately, with a new administration comes new plans and new studies but little to no real progress being made. We would not mind too much of subways replacing LRT's on Sheppard or Eglinton if that was what will happen. We all know the truth, we barely got money to build Eglinton and Sheppard East as LRT. Building them as subways would require even more money. Where is that money going to come from? Especially with removal of the car tax and property tax. Ford won't implement road tolls, or any other levy's to pay for transit as he doesn't give a rats ass for transit. All he cares about is cars and making driving smoother. He doesn't realize the road network is congested and no matter how much improvement you can get from synchronizing signals you will not improve the commute much.

So sure, lets cancel Transit-City, but just don't expect anything to replace it by the Ford administration. Torontonians are willing to wait another decade to do nothing. That is the main concern and our biggest fear. Before Ford, we had transit momentum, now we got nothing but hot air and posturing from politicians. History is doomed to repeat itself.

 

[Filip]

No it make you a jackass with a thumb on your nose waving your hand.

By the way, I'm not a liberal as I wear strips since I change parties based on what been offer by them in the first place.

One type of system is not a fit all and it a blend of them that services ""ALL"" the people, not a ::FEW::

Running Subways to a ""MALL"" to service a few riders as well not help to build an Avenue is a waste of everyone money.

So when you graduate, make sure the door hits you hard as you entrer the real world as you are going to need that hit to get ahead in life.

If I'm a jackass in an interesting pose, what would that make you?

I'm absolutely enjoying this, the gloves have finally come off eh?! So subways don't help in creating a livable city, but somehow LRTs will sprout these magical Queen Streets seemingly out of thin air on suburban arterials? Got news for you bud. Where subways were built on urbanized land, it stayed that way and intensified. Where subways are built on suburban arterials, they will intensify vertically with towering condos. It's an age of the neighbourhood issue, not the fact that streetcars somehow magically encourage European development on Sheppard, Finch and other random avenues Miller decided to shove a streetcar on.

 

[ShonTron]

A good post, and one that I think highlights some of the communications problems that got really bad toward the end of Miller's term.

For the most part, though, I think the only kind of person who ever cares about transit plans beyond vague ideas of what's promised during election campaigns are downtowners who geek out on urban issues.

Miller's second term descended into several brushes with failure by the end 2008, partly because that administration lost control of the message. Miller and his largely 'downtown' team (but not entirely downtown - Shelly Carroll, for example, and some right-of-centre suburbanites were let in -even Lastman gave lefty downtowners some reign-, unlike the current shut-out). The temper tantrum he pulled over the new taxes, cutting services immediately because he didn't get want he wanted left a terrible taste in my mouth; and the garbage strike was handled poorly as was the TTC strike under a supposedly union-friendly council.

Miller had all the control he needed - there were enough centrists that backed him on most things, so it wasn't like Obama's failure to communicate. But TC is an excellent example of that failure to communicate, though Miller did a lot with the suburbs in mind, just at times in that "we know what's best for you" attitude without the proper communications. The Tower Renewal is another great example - once people understood it, they loved it. It would have really revolutionized parts of the suburbs. I think TC suffers from the same problems.

And Ford shows no sign of any compromise or cooperation. I bet Lastman will rank as a better mayor.

 

[nfitz]

How many seats have they lost due to partially funding SELRT?

It was only $300 million, at a time they also funded major infrastructure across the country. There is no such program available now ... beyond the $300 million. Which isn't even enough to extend Sheppard to Consumers Drive.

Again, you don't understand politics

 

[nfitz]

Pinko Liberals like you (and most of this board) make me sick to my stomach.

Pinko? I don't think I've heard that since the 1970s ...

Are you like 75 or something?

 

[nfitz]

I bet Lastman will rank as a better mayor.

Ed the Sock would rank as a better mayor.

 

[Ed Drass]

Express buses, even without lanes, can work great. The 190 is a great success, and was followed up with the 199.

Those Rockets are both good routes. I should refer to the nomenclature thread ... but by 'Express' I'm talking about buses that run along existing local routes. Has anyone got a run-time comparison of the 199 and the local Finch East route where they overlap?

My understanding is that the general time saving of this kind of 'express' over 'local' is considered marginal by TTC planners.

And though the 199 seems like good planning to me, a lot of Finch riders were pissed about the change.

Even BRT-less "Expresses" across all the city's key arterials might be a good step, but they would need to be kicked up a few notches before offering any real speed savings.

-Ed