Transit City Plan

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

At the risk of interrupting all this back and forth isn't Presto still a pilot project?

Has ANY of this stuff been finalized? Isn't it likely that once TTC is on board a lot of these issues (refundablity, tourist-friendly passes etc) will be resolved? I find it virtually impossible to believe the pass will go region-wide with a $25 minimum.

 

[Hipster Duck]

The problem with Presto as a pilot project is that the usefulness of a new fare card only works if it's applied across the entire system. If you have only a handful of scattered turnstiles, it will never be a viable alternative to tokens and paper tickets.

 

[nfitz]

Yes, but you're not a tourist (which was my whole point). If the $5 fee was refundable (like the Octopus and Oyster cards seem to be) there'd be no problem.

But how many people actually ever get the refund? I've never bothered to get a refund from Oyster. And I always seem to have an old Metrocard around with a ride or two left, that expires, that I don't bother trying and get the refund from. For a tourist, $5 is pocket change. And as these cards become more integrated, it will be useful elsewhere; the Presto card is already going to be used throughout the GTA and in Ottawa. Perhaps one day, we'll have 2 or 3 cards that will be good anywhere on the planet.

 

[DavidH]

At the risk of interrupting all this back and forth isn't Presto still a pilot project?

Has ANY of this stuff been finalized?

No, it is NOT a pilot. Presto is proceeding full steam ahead for implementation across the GTAH next year, with the TTC being the sole exception - and even there, they have effectively been ordered to join Presto although they obviously won't be there for next year except for the handful of subway stations they had previously agreed to.

What IS a pilot in a sense is this fall's Lakeshore West test, which is designed to shake out remaining problems in the implementation before the large scale go-lives next year.

Much of what is being asked in this thread has been finalized internally but has not been made public yet.

The problem with Presto as a pilot project is that the usefulness of a new fare card only works if it's applied across the entire system. If you have only a handful of scattered turnstiles, it will never be a viable alternative to tokens and paper tickets.

Presto will still be hugely valuable next year even without a full TTC implementation - but I agree, TTC needs a full implementation, and hopefully we'll soon know what the timeline will be for that given the new Metrolinx statement this past week.

 

[nfitz]

I can't figure out how they are going to do Lakeshore West first, given the trains keep going onto Lakeshore East.

So you tap in when you get on the train (say at Port Credit). But if you get off east of Union (say at Danforth) ... you still need to tap off (unless it is your regular trip).

On the other hand, I also don't see how they can do any enforcement with the regular trip thing. What's stopping someone setting their regular trip from Union to Exhibition ... and then staying on the train until Oakville? If they are ever checked on the train west of Exhibition, then they are good, because they have tapped on. And if they exit the train at Oakville, it's not until they pass the last reader in the station, that they are doing anything wrong - so there's a very small period of time where they could be caught - and if they see someone checking, they just tap off and they are good.

 

[DavidH]

I can't figure out how they are going to do Lakeshore West first, given the trains keep going onto Lakeshore East.

My understanding is that the current fare system will remain as a secondary system until Presto is done. So people going beyond Union would need to use the current fare media while people stopping at Union could use Presto, for a little while. Obviously, things are going to be confusing next year while some trips can use Presto and others can't. At the same time, i don't think anybody is going to be forced to use Presto until the entire system is on Presto.

I can't figure out how they are going to do Lakeshore
On the other hand, I also don't see how they can do any enforcement with the regular trip thing. What's stopping someone setting their regular trip from Union to Exhibition ... and then staying on the train until Oakville? If they are ever checked on the train west of Exhibition, then they are good, because they have tapped on.

Good question! They're aware of this loophole, but I'm not sure if a decision has been made on how to deal with it.

 

[CDL.TO]

With casual travellers who don't have a Presto card, or travellers with a Presto card but outside of their regular commute, there will still have to be fare inspectors to make sure that everyone is travelling legally.

Plus, if Presto is a system where you have to "tap out", and if you tap in at Union and fail to tap out you'll be docked a penalty fare.

 

[DavidH]

With casual travellers who don't have a Presto card, or travellers with a Presto card but outside of their regular commute, there will still have to be fare inspectors to make sure that everyone is travelling legally.

Plus, if Presto is a system where you have to "tap out", and if you tap in at Union and fail to tap out you'll be docked a penalty fare.

There will need to be inspectors on POP implementations but that's no different from now. Bus drivers will be able to tell if people have tapped, for example.

The "pay full fare" unless you tap out mechanism adds some degree of self-enforcement, but the problem is the "regular trip" mechanism for GO, as above.

 

[CDL.TO]

There will need to be inspectors on POP implementations but that's no different from now. Bus drivers will be able to tell if people have tapped, for example.

The "pay full fare" unless you tap out mechanism adds some degree of self-enforcement, but the problem is the "regular trip" mechanism for GO, as above.

I looked through the last few pages and didn't see any official statements that you wouldn't have to "tap out" if it's your "regular trip". Where does it say this?

 

[DavidH]

I looked through the last few pages and didn't see any official statements that you wouldn't have to "tap out" if it's your "regular trip". Where does it say this?

From:
http://prestocard.ca/en/your/use/default.aspx#When

GO Train commuters will have regular origin and destination fares stored on the PRESTO card. If you are taking that regular trip, you only have to tap on – no tap off is required. If you do not have a regular origin and destination stored on your fare card, or if you are not taking the regular default trip, you will have to tap on and tap off.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

TTC is supposedly developing their own smart card system that is compatible with Presto in that Presto cards will work on TTC readers.

 

[Eug]

Yes, but you're not a tourist (which was my whole point). If the $5 fee was refundable (like the Octopus and Oyster cards seem to be) there'd be no problem.

Refundable, AND a minimum of less than $20.

It'd be much better if you could just put money on as needed, say $5-10 at a time.

 

[DavidH]

TTC is supposedly developing their own smart card system that is compatible with Presto in that Presto cards will work on TTC readers.

They have just been ORDERED to use Presto on the new LRT lines by the Minister of Transportation. It's reasonable to assume that they will use Presto across the board.

"Compatible" with Presto would mean that they would have to link in to Presto's systems, and there is no way the government would allow them to do that. For one, it would add significant security risk.

Refundable, AND a minimum of less than $20.

It'd be much better if you could just put money on as needed, say $5-10 at a time.

You will be able to do so; it's just the initial purchase will come with some money on so that they can sell you a loaded-and-ready-to-use card.

 

[Eug]

You will be able to do so; it's just the initial purchase will come with some money on so that they can sell you a loaded-and-ready-to-use card.

Well, that's the point. Those who use transit just occasionally (esp. tourists) generally aren't going to want to cough up $25 up front.

Remember, 5 tokens is only $11.25. That works out to $2.25 per token.

 

[DavidH]

Well, that's the point. Those who use transit just occasionally (esp. tourists) generally aren't going to want to cough up $25 up front.

Remember, 5 tokens is only $11.25. That works out to $2.25 per token.

I'm not arguing in favour of this choice; just saying what it is now.

I think this may be one of those things that reflects TTC's relative lack of involvement thus far. I would hope that when TTC starts going live with this in a few (?) years, they will deal with this.