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AlvinofDiaspar
Guest
Since when did one person equate to help for the whole city?
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EnviroTO
Guest
I'm guessing that the priorities are set to the colours. Waterfront West and Don Mills are currently in an EA process. Sheppard East and Jane will probably be next followed by Finch West and Scarborough Malvern.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
"Since when did one person equate to help for the whole city?"
75,000 people in Malvern are getting $2 billion worth of help, while 75,000 people in my area get nothing.
75,000 people in Malvern are getting $2 billion worth of help, while 75,000 people in my area get nothing.
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EnviroTO
Guest
Since when did one person equate to help for the whole city?
I think it became so about two years ago when miketoronto made transit to Markham Rd and Ellesmere the number one priority in the city.
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unimaginative2
Guest
I agree with you, spmarshall. I think that Eglinton has potential. It will be a complete failure and spectacular waste of money if it doesn't have total transit priority, where the streetcar will never have to wait at a light. I'm sure it will still be considerably slower than the Bloor subway, though, keeping the latter the primary destination for most Mississauga trips, and making the explosion in ridership they project quite questionable. Still, if any route were suited to real LRT, it's Eglinton.
Even more questionable is the Jane line. I find it very hard to figure out where 24 million people are going to come from. Jane and Finch will be far better served by the subway extension, unless the extension is going to slowly fall by the wayside... The rest of Jane isn't particularly dense, and I can't imagine the median right-of-way being much quicker than parallel bus routes. I might add that I still can't imagine how they're going to squeeze it in to that narrow corridor. What's with the extension up to Steeles West? Finch West station might be useful, since it would capture the many riders from Jane and Finch to the subway. By Steeles West, who will be using it? Commuters from Jane and Finch to the Vaughan Corporate Centre?
The three extensions to Malvern (One more than even Socialwoe proposed!) have already been effectively dissected by others, but I might just add that the cost will likely come close to the cost of the entire York subway line, all for a few dozen thousand people in Malvern who will still have to change from the Morningside streetcar to the Sheppard Streetcar, and from the Sheppard Streetcar to the Scarborough RT just to get to Town Centre. Trips downtown will require the same number of connections, unless they take the streetcar all the way down to Kennedy Station. Mind you, there will be so pitifully few riders on Morningside that it will likely be a fairly fast trip.
The Waterfront West plan is a perfectly sensible project that has been discussed for a long time. It still won't be very effective, though, if they don't speed up the existing section of the route. If it takes longer to get from Exhibition Loop to Union than from Humber Loop to Exhibition, there's definitely something wrong. Streetcars move at a snail's pace through that Fleet/Bathurst/Lakeshore intersection.
The Finch LRT will likely be fairly well used, and is a good project. I still question whether it's worth close to a billion dollars to replace a relatively efficient bus route with light rail. Will the travel time savings really be that impressive? This route will make the York subway extension even more well-used. Finch West station may become one of the busiest on the entire subway network.
Don Mills is an interesting possibility. It has tremendous potential, especially if it's speedy enough to divert east-west bus passengers. Unfortunately, winding its way on city streets down to Pape Station will likely ensure that the Yonge line is far quicker. It will be nice to have higher order transit to places like Thorncliffe Park, Flemingdon Park, and Don Mills. Like Finch, though, I hope that the travel time savings are worth the hundreds of millions of dollars expended.
Even more questionable is the Jane line. I find it very hard to figure out where 24 million people are going to come from. Jane and Finch will be far better served by the subway extension, unless the extension is going to slowly fall by the wayside... The rest of Jane isn't particularly dense, and I can't imagine the median right-of-way being much quicker than parallel bus routes. I might add that I still can't imagine how they're going to squeeze it in to that narrow corridor. What's with the extension up to Steeles West? Finch West station might be useful, since it would capture the many riders from Jane and Finch to the subway. By Steeles West, who will be using it? Commuters from Jane and Finch to the Vaughan Corporate Centre?
The three extensions to Malvern (One more than even Socialwoe proposed!) have already been effectively dissected by others, but I might just add that the cost will likely come close to the cost of the entire York subway line, all for a few dozen thousand people in Malvern who will still have to change from the Morningside streetcar to the Sheppard Streetcar, and from the Sheppard Streetcar to the Scarborough RT just to get to Town Centre. Trips downtown will require the same number of connections, unless they take the streetcar all the way down to Kennedy Station. Mind you, there will be so pitifully few riders on Morningside that it will likely be a fairly fast trip.
The Waterfront West plan is a perfectly sensible project that has been discussed for a long time. It still won't be very effective, though, if they don't speed up the existing section of the route. If it takes longer to get from Exhibition Loop to Union than from Humber Loop to Exhibition, there's definitely something wrong. Streetcars move at a snail's pace through that Fleet/Bathurst/Lakeshore intersection.
The Finch LRT will likely be fairly well used, and is a good project. I still question whether it's worth close to a billion dollars to replace a relatively efficient bus route with light rail. Will the travel time savings really be that impressive? This route will make the York subway extension even more well-used. Finch West station may become one of the busiest on the entire subway network.
Don Mills is an interesting possibility. It has tremendous potential, especially if it's speedy enough to divert east-west bus passengers. Unfortunately, winding its way on city streets down to Pape Station will likely ensure that the Yonge line is far quicker. It will be nice to have higher order transit to places like Thorncliffe Park, Flemingdon Park, and Don Mills. Like Finch, though, I hope that the travel time savings are worth the hundreds of millions of dollars expended.
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Mike in TO
Guest
I'm sure this plan is being released now so that the city can justify quietly cancelling the subway extension in favour of these streetcar projects.
Toronto can't cancel the subway - they are funding something like 20% of it and when the feds and province comes together after years and years of lobby efforts with nearly $700m from the feds and ~$650m from the province - Toronto cutting it's portion of funding a few months in advance of construction would be the worst move the city could possibly make politically or for the future of transit in the city (do you think a cent of help for anything else would come our way if the city tried to cut funding) - it's like biting off the hand that feds you and then going for the groin...
People need to get over themselves regarding the Spadina/VCC subway extension - yes it's not the best use of funds, but it's going to happen. Any illusions of cancelling the Toronto portion of the funding and you can kiss any future goodwill from the feds or province for a decade. Get on with it, build it and move onto the next project.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
Not to defend express buses downtown, but, actually, miketoronto does live at the intersection of 4 busy bus routes.
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unimaginative2
Guest
You're absolutely, 100% right, Mike in TO, but look at what happened in Ottawa. "Pro-Transit" activists delayed the project for so long demanding the most ridiculous of minor changes that it was finally cancelled, despite firm commitments from both the Federal and Provincial governments. Baird's window to mess around was created entirely by the transit activists, and the "Pro-Transit" mayoral candidate who chose to make opposition to light rail the main plank of his campaign platform.
Miketoronto's house will, incidentally, be served by the only rapid transit extension in the program.
Miketoronto's house will, incidentally, be served by the only rapid transit extension in the program.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
Also, when I said *I* won't get any help getting downtown, getting across the city, or getting around downtown, that means that all of the people taking the same routes as me also get no help.
I actually like some of the plan, and assuming Eglinton becomes a real light rail line, I like a lot of it.
I actually like some of the plan, and assuming Eglinton becomes a real light rail line, I like a lot of it.
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spmarshall
Guest
I was hoping never to have to get the memories of David Jeanes, the great transit activist, stuck in my head again, but Unimaginative, you did it. Thanks.
David Jeanes is a twat.
David Jeanes is a twat.
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prometheus the supremo
Guest
will the new LRT lines be a standard guage or TTC horse wagon guage?
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
Back when I said "I'm going to fight this" I was just referring to the Scarborough portion...I'll continue to support a Danforth subway extension since it's vastly superior to any other transit option, and I'm vehemently opposed to anything that undermines the Sheppard subway. Most of the other planned LRTs do have a lot of potential, and given a few more details and assurances (such as why they're costing so much, whether it'll be 'real' light rail...presumably there's a connection here), I'd be ready to be wildly supportive of routes like Finch West, Eglinton, etc.
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andomano52
Guest
Morningside is an interesting choice for the streetcar, mainly because of two really big hills going down into the highland creek valley (morningside park) on both sides of Ellesmere.
There were talks about the streetcars having to be specifically made to toronto specification because of the bathurst hill, which is really nothing compared to this dip.
p.s. if you're riding your bike thru the area, take some time to ride down the hill--its loads of fun, but do it on the east-side sidewalk since theres only a sidewalk on that side at the bottom of the hill south of ellesmere!
There were talks about the streetcars having to be specifically made to toronto specification because of the bathurst hill, which is really nothing compared to this dip.
p.s. if you're riding your bike thru the area, take some time to ride down the hill--its loads of fun, but do it on the east-side sidewalk since theres only a sidewalk on that side at the bottom of the hill south of ellesmere!
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EnviroTO
Guest
One aspect I am surprised no one has mentioned is the great potential that lies at the southern end of the new Don Mills and Jane LRT lines.
The problem is that a line ending at Bloor east of Hyde Park has a lot of opportunities to be extended to Waterfront West. That line you have drawn from Jane to the waterfront is cutting through part of Hyde Park which isn't going to happen and a residential neighbourhood which is not going to be accepting of it at all. The Don Mills and Jane LRTs though will advance a DRL on the agenda though when those routes get near capacity or the Bloor line can't handle the load. The Bloor line becoming overloaded would probably happen first making a project that deals with that overload a top priority.
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EnviroTO
Guest
will the new LRT lines be a standard guage or TTC horse wagon guage?
I'm pretty sure they would be TTC guage so the equipment could be interoperable.