News   Jul 19, 2024
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Transit City Plan

"who says though that these people will all be heading downtown?"

Who says everyone using the subway goes downtown?

"Another is allowing people to bop about their neighborhoods as part of their day-to-day lives without their cars."

Being able to bop around the hydro corridor north of Finch will do absolutely nothing to get people out of their cars.

There's also the RT extension...a hideously offensive project that will end up costing about the same as a subway extension to STC, only it won't do a damn thing for half of its current riders.

There's literally 12 people in Morningside Heights that complain about the retarded routing of the 133C and bitch about how long it takes to get downtown (of course, they decided to move to the middle of nowhere...why should we bend over backwards just because they have a 416 address?) and Raymond Cho latched onto this injustice and politicians are obsessed with poor underprivileged Malvern and so they're getting an RT extension that will not see very high ridership...it could be 20,000 riders a day. Give them an express bus option or some of miketoronto's bus route ideas.

I'll wait to see the rest of the plan before bashing it.

edit - oh, and I agree completely, FutureMayor.
 
Re: LRT Network Proposition

I agree, Louroz. Some of this funding should have been contingent on the TTC adopting the new fare card system. I should also have been funneled through the GTTA. There seems to be very little thought going into how and where all these systems will fit together. We know that ultimately, a continuous busway route will run east-west through York, south into Mississauga, and west to Oakville. We don't know how or where it will connect, or even where it will run. It would appear that we will have four higher order transit routes all within a couple of kilometres of one another, along Highway 7, the 407, Finch, and Sheppard. How does that make sense? Can't some of them be combined? Is a separate bus roadway necessary along the 407 when congestion on that road isn't very severe?
 
Re: LRT Network Proposition

Especially, according to the EA documents that YRT has for Viva II on Highway 7, the GO transitway (in yellow) will weave in and out of 407 interchanges, connecting parking lots to each other, with few connections to anything else, except a planned station on the Sorbara Subway. Want to connect to local transit? Fuhgettaboutit.
 
Re: LRT Network Proposition

I am afraid of spending 2+ billion on a surface rail network without some proof that this will rival the speed of a subway system. (i.e. limited stops, control of street signals, speedy boarding of some design, time-til-next signs, and maybe a heated waiting area of somesort in winter). I want them to prove it on St. Clair first.

If this does not improve public transit and we spend 2+ billion on it.... we will likely not get another chance in the near future.
 
Re: LRT Network Proposition

A dedicated transit corridor on Finch Ave., in part utilizing the hydro right of way, to connect north Scarborough and north Etobicoke to the subway; A west waterfront line linking Etobicoke to Union Station; Connecting the Sheppard subway line to Scarborough Town Centre; Extending the Scarborough Rapid Transit (SRT) line to northeastern Scarborough. Since the SRT is due to wear out by about 2011 in any case, it's the subject of a separate planning process.

Another important rapid transit route that will likely be covered in the TTC report tomorrow is the Don Mills corridor, Giambrone said. Planning work is already under way on Don Mills.

Northwest Etobicoke will benefit far more from the new York U subway extension than from any new light rail. The Finch West station at Keele will dramatically shorten trips for people in Jane/Finch, Weston/Finch and even Rexdale to the subway. I am sure that it will become a very well-used station. The EA even calls for five full, articulated-capable bus bays in the station to handle the Finch West bus alone. A streetcar to the Yonge line will do very little to reduce travel times or reduce overcrowding on the Yonge line by shifting traffic to Spadina.

I've already mentioned the problems with running in the Finch hydro corridor. I'm of two minds, since a hydro corridor route will create the potential for real, LRT-style limited stops and potentially even crossing gated level crossings which give true priority to the light rail vehicle. On the other hand, several studies have dismissed the hydro corridor as being too far from Finch even for a subway, which as we all know people are far more willing to walk to than a bus or streetcar route.

This is aside from the whole issue that I mentioned about four high capacity transit corridors within a couple kilometres (Sheppard, Finch, Highway 407, Highway 7).

I completely support the west waterfront line, which is an economical project that, with real transit priority, has the potential to generate significant ridership.

The most frustrating is the completion of Sheppard with LRT. I'd much rather wait a few years for the streetcar phase to pass and for us to start building new subways than to have a new LRT now and be forced to live with it forever. This completely unnecessary transfer will be something the city will come to regret for a very long time, much like the Kennedy transfer to the RT. It will forever doom Sheppard to the failure that the streetcar junkies wish it will be.

As I've already mentioned, the extension of the RT north to Sheppard and Markham makes no sense. The cost will easily be the same as extending the Sheppard line to Consumers, and anybody who has ever been to those two places will know that there is infinitely more development at Consumers. Sheppard and Markham has gas stations and a couple mid-rise office buildings. The only intermediate station will still be a good walk from Centennial College and Tuxedo Court, the only nearby destinations of any consequence. For the same marginal cost of refurbishment and extension, or less since any extension will require a replacement of the constrained McCowan Yard, they could replace the RT with a subway that would save time not only for people at Sheppard and Markham, but from Ellesmere East/UTSC, Milliken, and all of the rest of northeast and east Scarborough.

I remain baffled by the obsession with the northeastern fringe of Scarborough. I can't emphasize more that Malvern just isn't that big. In fact, it's far smaller than countless other nodes across the city that nobody would ever dream to serve with its own RT extension. I've heard it called "fast-growing" but all the growth in northeast Scarborough is in tract housing in the Morningside Heights area, which is not particularly transit-friendly in the first place and will simply not generate any kind of significant ridership for an RT at Markham and Sheppard, which a cursory glance at a map would show is quite a distance away. At a hundredth of the cost of this RT extension, the TTC could route the Neilson bus from Morningside Heights and Malvern to Scarborough Centre along Highway 401, potentially using shoulder bus lanes as on the 403. Scarborough Centre is very successful as the transit hub for Scarborough. It just makes perfect sense to route new rapid transit and bus lines to one place where people can easily make connections. Forcing riders from eastern Scarborough to ride to Scarborough Centre, change to the RT, ride up to Sheppard, change to the Sheppard streetcar to Don Mills, then transfer to the subway just to get to Yonge is not a recipe for successful transit.

Don Mills is interesting. I've always been the DRL guy, so I'm pleased that they're at least examining the corridor. The problem I see is that higher order transit on Don Mills will only be successful if it attracts passengers on east-west bus routes away from the Yonge line. With the minimal travel time savings existing TTC ROWs have offered, east enders will still have a shorter trip downtown by riding all the way to Yonge.

I would guess that they will also propose an extension of the streetcar along Kingston Road. That route already has pitiful headways (as much as 20 minutes). What are they going to do when they make the route even longer and double the capacity of the vehicles? Double the headways? 40 minute service? Obviously that's exaggerating, but I really question the need to spend $200 million to extend a streetcar line which already can barely be considered a full service route.
 
Re: LRT Network Proposition

OMG



Toronto to unveil $6-billion transit plan for suburbs

JEFF GRAY

From Friday's Globe and Mail

TORONTO — The Toronto Transit Commission will Friday unveil $6-billion plans to build a massive new light-rail network, anchored by lines that would stretch all the way from Etobicoke to Scarborough and bring rapid transit to the city's underserved suburbs.

The ambitious plans, based on promises in Mayor David Miller's re-election platform, would create up to 120 kilometres of new light-rail lines by 2021, running in dedicated lanes separated from traffic, a source told The Globe and Mail.


Sources say the centrepiece is a $2.2-billion, partly underground line along Eglinton Avenue, from Kingston Road in the east to Pearson Airport in the west.


Sources say other routes in the plan, which one city hall source said was rushed in order to come out before the federal budget, include:

-- An $835-million line along Finch Avenue West, from Highway 427 in Etobicoke to Finch subway station on the Yonge line;

-- A $675-million line on Don Mills Road, from Steeles Avenue East to the Bloor subway line;

-- A $630-million line on Jane Street;

-- A $555-million line from Don Mills Station that runs along Sheppard Avenue East to Morningside;

-- A $630-million line on Morningside Avenue that continues onto Kingston Road;

-- A $540-million waterfront west line.

While TTC chairman Adam Giambrone and other TTC officials would reveal few details Thursday, TTC commissioner Glenn De Baeremaeker, familiar with the project, outlined some of its key routes and said it would essentially encircle the city with rapid transit.

“This is a big, bold, beautiful plan,†Mr. De Baeremaeker said Thursday.

He said he did not yet know the precise costs, which TTC commissioners were to see this morning before the plan's release to the media.

“This is the turning point for public transit in Toronto,†said TTC commissioner Joe Mihevc, a long-time advocate for light rail who fought the last election on the controversial dedicated lanes on St. Clair Avenue.

Mr. Giambrone said Friday's plans, to be accompanied by a public-relations campaign to boost support for the idea of a light-rail network, will include routes promised by the mayor last fall, as well as “some surprises.â€

“The plan will be unveiled [Friday] ... and it will outline a vision of how we would deal with traffic congestion and the environmental effects of car travel by building an environmentally sustainable, transit-friendly city,†Mr. Giambrone said.

The general idea, and many of the routes, are not new.

The TTC has long said that it wants to run streetcars — or the sleek new light-rail vehicles the TTC plans to buy in the next few years — in their own lanes, or rights-of-way, down the middle of as many as a dozen major roads across the city.

Dedicated streetcar lanes, in place now on Spadina Avenue downtown and still under construction along St. Clair Avenue, proved controversial with some businesses and residents on St. Clair, where a local group raised concerns about traffic and parking problems and even took the city to court.

But TTC officials have long argued that the best way to make public transit efficient is to separate it from traffic jams, allowing streetcars to run more frequently and reliably. Many cities across the United States and Europe are installing similar dedicated lines.

They are also much cheaper than subways, proponents say. While new subway lines can cost as much as $250-million a kilometre, building dedicated light-rail lines can run as much as 10 times less.

But the cost of the lines unveiled Friday will likely average around $35-million a kilometre, Mr. Giambrone said, given that some may need expensive bridges or tunnels. Light-rail lines are also much cheaper than subways to operate once they are built, he said.

The TTC is also in the process of shopping for a fleet of new light-rail vehicles to replace and expand its current fleet of streetcars, now nearing 30 years old, a project expected to cost $1.4-billion but necessary for any light-rail expansion in the city.

All of the plans to be outlined will require funding from other governments.

Last week, Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced nearly $1-billion in public transit for the Greater Toronto Area, including the federal share of a $2.1-billion project to extend Toronto's Spadina subway line 8.7 kilometres north into York Region.

But Mr. Miller and other mayors across the country have started pushing for a “national transit strategy†that would see Ottawa fund more transit projects nationally.

Mr. Giambrone said Friday's plans will make it clear what projects Toronto would fund with any new money the city receives.

With a report from Jennifer Lewington
 
Re: LRT Network Proposition

Oh my god. Socialwoe's identity is revealed: he's David Miller! Light Rail on Morningside?! Have they ever been there?

They're spending $6 billion dollars on all this stuff, and there won't be one iota of a fraction of an improvement to any transit downtown, whatsoever.

I support the Eglinton line. It'll be fairly impressive, sure, but I remain to be convinced that it won't be slower than the Bloor line.

I lived just off Jane. It's a narrow four-lane road. How are they going to fit a right-of-way? The same can be said for Finch, or is it all going in the hydro corridor? We still have three parallel transit corridors proposed within a couple kilometres of one another.

The whole idea of a $630 million streetcar on Jane is absurd. There's no way the travel time savings will be more than a couple minutes, and any capacity increases could be obtained by a couple million dollars worth of extra buses or articulated buses, perhaps with transit priority signals and HOV lanes. The marginal improvement of the streetcar over improved buses: a couple minutes shorter travel time at best and likely reduced frequency owing to larger vehicles. The marginal cost: about six hundred and twenty million dollars.

My point about Kingston Road remains, except that instead of the $200 million that I speculated, they will spend $630 million dollars on extending a line that is barely full service as it is, and will unquestionably offer a travel time from its endpoint to downtown approaching two hours.

Much cheaper than subways? When was the last time the city spend $6 billion on the subway? I bet our entire subway system cost significantly less than $6 billion. For the cost of the Kingston/Morningside and Jane streetcars alone, we could have a full DRL from Spadina up to Danforth.

These articles are still making the York subway sound like a bogeyman, but this shows that they will be literally spending one-and-a-half times more on a streetcar for Morningside than they are spending on an 8 km subway. No matter what one can say about the new subway, I can guarantee that there are a lot more people at York and at Keele and Finch than there are on Morningside.

If people think that St. Clair was a big deal, they can expect a veritable civil war when people find out that Finch and Jane will be reduced to one lane.
 
Re: LRT Network Proposition

Wow. Heavy on the hating!

Look forward to hearing what Steve Munro makes of it this weekend.
 
Re: LRT Network Proposition

It's good Miller is taking some action, though it would seem to make more sense putting the subways downtown and the light rail in Vaughn.
 
Who says everyone using the subway goes downtown?

You were the one worried about overcrowding. Seems the only part of the grid close to overcrowding is the downtown loop.
 
All of the plans to be outlined will require funding from other governments.

This seems like kind of a big assumption to make. Miller can promise all he wants, but if he can't pay for it - so what.
 
Keep in mind this is not a transit plan to support the existing pattern of developments - it is one to support the OP.

FM:

3 new BRT projects in the 905, with the promise of a study for Durham, but how about Halton and how are all these projects connected to each other?

Just ask yourself - would Mississauga be willing to forgo the current BRT project for a different alignment that would make more sense, both at the land use planning and regional development level? No. Why should you expect a different result given the current arrangment of municipal powers?

Now the TTC is releasing yet another plan that has no funding strategy. So much for planning for the future.

What projects in the GTA actually has a meaningful funding strategy, considering that the money is with the Feds and the province?

Real leadership needs to take place here, and Miller is obviously not up for the job, and the province is useless. Who will save the GTA?

The moment Miller (or anyone else) shows some "real leadership", I would bet you Hazel (or some other mayor) will be screaming about how it violates Mississauga's (or some other city's) sensibilities.

AoD
 
I agree. This seems shortsighted, and is but a bone tossed. Subways belong downtown, and then the LRT should adequately link the burbs to the downtown subway network. Makes sense. Costs a little more money? To be sure, but this is the future of the city we're talking about!

Torontonians, and 905ers (who also need an extensive downtown subway system too, by the way!) should 'demand' no less.
 
You know what? Why not simply put in all-day express buses all over - limited stops, pre-payment boarding, queue-jumps in suburban areas at congested intersections, signal priority. Fast and immediate (within 2 years). This is what I would do first on most routes. Note that this is not a screwy BRT plan, just speeding up buses on existing routes.

Then light rail where demand is warranted or where it makes the most sense, like Waterfront West, Portlands, Kingston Road or Eglinton (including tunneled sections like on Eglinton and Queen and possibly Jane south of St. Clair). I am not adverse to subways either, as long as they are logical.

Sheppard must, must at least be a subway to Victoria Park if the rest of it becomes LRT. It should probably go to Downsview as well. Or find a way to convert it to high capacity LRT (I mean capacity that can match the 6 minute 4 car T1 trains, not that difficult) to feed rail services on surface.
 

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