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Brighter Hell
Guest
...which is exactly why its absence is so baffling.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
"And more obscene then spending a couple of billion dollars upgrading the already have, rapid transit SRT to full blown subway?"
We don't already have it! They're going to spend over $500 million renovating it just to McCowan...the total cost of extending it and renovating is unknown, possibly $600-$700 million. Two additional LRT lines are being run out to the same place. Just how many people do they think live in Malvern to warrant three lines? A subway extension wouldn't cost much more than $1 billion but it would benefit more than 300,000 people (including people in Malvern, along Lawrence, Ellesmere, and McCowan, as well as support the new official plan by triggering growth in STC) and would leave more than enough money left over for at least one of the proposed LRT routes in Scarborough.
We don't already have it! They're going to spend over $500 million renovating it just to McCowan...the total cost of extending it and renovating is unknown, possibly $600-$700 million. Two additional LRT lines are being run out to the same place. Just how many people do they think live in Malvern to warrant three lines? A subway extension wouldn't cost much more than $1 billion but it would benefit more than 300,000 people (including people in Malvern, along Lawrence, Ellesmere, and McCowan, as well as support the new official plan by triggering growth in STC) and would leave more than enough money left over for at least one of the proposed LRT routes in Scarborough.
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unimaginative2
Guest
We don't already have it! They're going to spend over $500 million renovating it just to McCowan...the total cost of extending it and renovating is unknown, possibly $600-$700 million.
Good luck getting an RT extension plus new yard, which any extension requires, for $100-200 million. Try $500 or $600 million, which would, conveniently, mean that more is being spent on this renovation plus short, uneeded extension than would cost for a subway. Obviously that's why the subway conversion was shot down so quickly in the first place: they were obsessed with an extension that countless studies have dismissed as useless. Just look at what's there! The only reason it was planned in the 80s was because Palmerston Place, a commercial mega-development like Consumers Road, was planned at the time. That fell through and the site was built out with townhouses and a low-rise community centre. The extension has absolutely no purpose.
I'm really interested to see what this plan will be like in the more advanced design phase. I'll withold my overall judgement until then. I can guarantee, though, that if the design follows the prototype on St. Clair, we're in for a most spectacular failure. CDL mentioned that in Calgary, they have a system where an actual arm comes down to block left-turners so that the train can go forward. If these streetcars have to stop at any time other than when they are picking up passengers, they will not be competitive. We need real signal priority where the lights turn green whenever a streetcar is approaching, no matter what.
There is something screwy about subway construction in this city. I don't know...maybe they've been inflating costs to prepare us for this all-streetcar plan. Montreal has built a subway comparable in length to York U for $800 million, and that was following significant cost overruns. Vancouver's building over 18 kilometres of rapid transit, the majority underground, for a total cost to government of $1.5 billion. I won't even begin to compare with overseas examples (i.e. the oft-mentioned Madrid). It took four years to build the transcontinental railroad in the 1880s, and yet it takes 6 years to build a 7 kilometre subway?
Towered- You've got some interesting ideas. I agree that Weston seems forgotten in this plan, particularly when it's been in the news a fair bit because of the Blue 22 controversy. I'm guessing that it's because the group that's running the TTC doesn't believe in any transit that's not along the street.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
Nothing is purposeless when it's being spent on Malvern...
edit - really, the extension's purpose is to drive up the cost so much that they'll convert it to streetcars instead.
edit - really, the extension's purpose is to drive up the cost so much that they'll convert it to streetcars instead.
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roch5220
Guest
A subway extension wouldn't cost much more than $1 billion but it would benefit more than 300,000 people (including people in Malvern, along Lawrence, El
Would cost more than a billion? If I am remembering the options of the SRT replacement, the benefit of extending the subway would be that they could run both in conjunction, as they would not be using the same route. If my memory is correct, then to replace the 6 km SRT, wouldn't that cost the same of the 6 KM VCC extension?
The purpose of the LRT lines going out that way is partially to create a complete transit grid. It doesn't matter how many people live out at malvern. Its not about the individual areas, is about creating a backbone for transit.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
"If my memory is correct, then to replace the 6 km SRT, wouldn't that cost the same of the 6 KM VCC extension?"
Not when the VCC extension is just over 8km and the SRT replacement subway (via Brimley and Lawrence, the shortest alignment) would be a shade under 5km, with 3 fewer stops and no need to build a bus terminal at the end. The estimated capital cost of the subway was $1.2B according to the replacement study. The Spadina extension's cost is unnecessarily inflated, anyway, with no cut and covering, huge mezzanines, etc.
Not when the VCC extension is just over 8km and the SRT replacement subway (via Brimley and Lawrence, the shortest alignment) would be a shade under 5km, with 3 fewer stops and no need to build a bus terminal at the end. The estimated capital cost of the subway was $1.2B according to the replacement study. The Spadina extension's cost is unnecessarily inflated, anyway, with no cut and covering, huge mezzanines, etc.
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unimaginative2
Guest
I think you're confusing the fact that the subway extension will not require shutting down the RT for a year like the renovation plan with them operating the RT and subway extension concurrently. The subway will replace the RT, and it will be quite a bit shorter than the existing RT route. In all, around 5 km. The Vaughan subway is a lot more than 6km.
At any rate, the study projected the cost of replacing the RT with a subway as about $1.2 billion, according to the RT expansion study. Keeping the RT requires $500 million in renovations, plus at least a year shut down. It's an extra $700 million for the subway, even according to the TTC's cost for a subway which seems very inflated for a 5 kilometre line with two stations. We should also take into account the long term savings from the subway replacement. We would no longer need a separate yard, separate vehicle maintenance staff and equipment, separately trained drivers, etc.
At any rate, the study projected the cost of replacing the RT with a subway as about $1.2 billion, according to the RT expansion study. Keeping the RT requires $500 million in renovations, plus at least a year shut down. It's an extra $700 million for the subway, even according to the TTC's cost for a subway which seems very inflated for a 5 kilometre line with two stations. We should also take into account the long term savings from the subway replacement. We would no longer need a separate yard, separate vehicle maintenance staff and equipment, separately trained drivers, etc.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
"shutting down the RT for a year
One year? It'll take several years to upgrade the RT - it takes the TTC 2 years to add elevators to stations, and Kennedy station is proposed to be completely rebuilt, to say nothing of rebuilding the entire RT track.
One year? It'll take several years to upgrade the RT - it takes the TTC 2 years to add elevators to stations, and Kennedy station is proposed to be completely rebuilt, to say nothing of rebuilding the entire RT track.
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cacruden
Guest
There is potentially another concern. Whether they are able to successfully implement the LRT (actual time savings - fairly efficient - ability to control traffic lights - rapid boarding - etc.), or not.... These ROW lines WILL remove current traffic capacity from Toronto's streets (Jane, Finch, etc.). If the LRT is successful, then it is not a problem short-term. If they implement the LRT badly (i.e. Spadina - not efficent) then the only outcome will to make an already bad situation worse.
I am still thinking I want them to prove themselves first on St. Clair and Spadina.
I am still thinking I want them to prove themselves first on St. Clair and Spadina.
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unimaginative2
Guest
I agree. The TTC should prove the new techniques that it will use to make these routes successful on the already-built St. Clair and Spadina routes, before we spend billions more.
Please, just look at the areas being served by the multi-billion dollar Scarborough extensions. I don't know how to post Google Maps directly as images on the forum, so here are the links.
Morningside and Sheppard
Markham and Sheppard
Morningside and Finch
Morningside and Ellesmere
Please, just look at the areas being served by the multi-billion dollar Scarborough extensions. I don't know how to post Google Maps directly as images on the forum, so here are the links.
Morningside and Sheppard
Markham and Sheppard
Morningside and Finch
Morningside and Ellesmere
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
The funniest thing is that even with three lines, none of them actually goes to the heart of Malvern...
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unimaginative2
Guest
I really don't want to be negative about this plan, and I truly believe that real light rail has a very important place in Toronto's transit mix. Finch West, Eglinton, Waterfront West, and maybe even Don Mills are all great places for real light rail. My main fear is simply that the TTC will build these routes as it has built "light rail" on St. Clair, which simply isn't competitive with the car, subway, or even express bus. I also believe that the Scarborough plan is deeply flawed, ignoring the valuable role that Scarborough Centre plays as a hub for all the transit routes in the east end and doing nothing to resolve the main problem with transit in Scarborough: the unreliability of the RT and the time wasted by the transfer to the RT at Kennedy. This new plan will even exacerbate the problem, since the new RT station will be located some distance from the subway station. Though it will be at grade, eliminating two escalator rides, it will add at least a hundred metre walk through a tunnel. The plan adds an unnecessary RT extension to a non-existent hub at Markham and Sheppard, undoubtedly costing as much or more than a subway extension that would probably save people at Markham and Sheppard much more time on their trips downtown through the elimination of the Kennedy transfer and several woefully underused stations.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
*One escalator ride - the subway is 2 floors below the surface.
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lokyin
Guest
i love the jane and scarborough LRT lines. they make propelling intensification of etobicoke and scarborough so much easier. some of the areas that these two lines will enter so desperately need this in order to intensify and make it more attractive for ppl to live in..
it sure is a little weird that from sheppard ave in the east going westward seems disjointed, but i guess not too many frequent a trip of scarborough town to say finch west anyway..
it sure is a little weird that from sheppard ave in the east going westward seems disjointed, but i guess not too many frequent a trip of scarborough town to say finch west anyway..
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roch5220
Guest
One escalator ride - the subway is 2 floors below the surface.
My bad about the cost of the extension. I remember now it was 1.2 Billion.
This transfer is long if this is the only transfer distance you've ever needed to make. I've had to make transfers in a couple of stations in NY where you are walking a friggen long time down long corridors, and even one in particular, down a corridor, down onto a platform, up to another corridor (at the end of that subway platform), and then to the final platform. But doing this, I agree that its best to minimze transfer times.