Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

The politicians who want to extend the Yonge subway should try riding it during rush hour

Alternative article:
The downtown-dwelling columnists who write about the extension should come up to Thornhill and Richmond Hill - or even just venture north of Eglinton one time - to see the intensification going on, and wonder what the future holds for the subway and commuting, regardless of whether the line goes north of Finch or not. Just ONE time, Ed.

I'm not saying - and have never said - they're wrong about the crowding. But if Ed Keenan actually walked around the planned Urban Growth Centre with RH's chief planner or something, he might have a better appreciation of the Catch 22 we're stuck in instead of another round of Toronto-centric hand-wringing.

EDIT: I read the article yesterday but just read it again and while I understand the issues, there's still something perverse about him objecting to politicians pushing for subway lines that will attract more riders to the system. It seems like it would be hard to do that while also writing articles about what a white elephant the SSE will be, but again, that's the Catch 22 we're in and saying "the subway is full!" isn't going to help unless you're prepared to enact quotas or check for 905 IDs at Finch Station. People going south live north of the subway terminal; it's just a fact of life.

 

[raptor]

Alternative article:
The downtown-dwelling columnists who write about the extension should come up to Thornhill and Richmond Hill - or even just venture north of Eglinton one time - to see the intensification going on, and wonder what the future holds for the subway and commuting, regardless of whether the line goes north of Finch or not.

I'm not saying - and have never said - they're wrong about the crowding. But if Ed Keenan actually walked around the planned Urban Growth Centre with RH's chief planner or something, he might have a better appreciation of the Catch 22 we're stuck in instead of another round of Toronto-centric hand-wringing.

Also - they should see the amount of buses on Yonge St. coming out of Finch station.
Seriously, I hate this whole "us vs. them" argument, but since when is the well being of Toronto residents more important than the well being of YR residents?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Yes - the Us vs. Them is a real problem - Toronto residents are York Region workers and vice versa, not separate species. and it's aggravated when the columnists live around the Stockyards and see everything from that perspective. I don't mean it sarcastically - I'd love to see a writer like Keenan or John Lorinc come up and do what you said: stand at Yonge/Steeles for 30 mins and watch the buses. Maybe mention the 115+ stories of condo that have been proposed at that corner. Then drive up Yonge to 7. Talk to the landowners and planners about what's going to happen there. Instead of sniping at Scarpitti from afar, have some Toronto-based columnist try to engage in dialogue and grasp why he keeps going on about it.
Then write an article that tells "the other side" of the story.

By all means - continue to put it in the context of what a mess we've caused by failing to prioritize the Relief Line! But stop pretending Toronto is an island and we're talking about building a bridge to the mainland. People are flowing along this transportation route no matter what you do and if you can zoom out a bit and understand the regional picture, it actually shows the issues caused by failing to building the Relief Line even more starkly than if you think the only issues are platform crowding at Yonge/Bloor and a lack of seats for people getting on at Eglinton. The entire premises of the Growth Plan and Big Move are what's being tested with this failure.

 

[ShonTron]

Some valid points. I'm not against a Yonge extension either and the demand is there. I'll pull my hair out thinking about how much the city stalled on the DRL, which is part of the problem.

Though it would be nice to see York Region build its own transit ridership (it increased by a pathetic 1.2% in 2017) and better fund YRT, instead of just jumping up and down demanding a Yonge Subway. There should be a lot better service feeding York Region's existing subway line. What happened to Viva Silver?

 

[robmausser]

Some valid points. I'm not against a Yonge extension either and the demand is there. I'll pull my hair out thinking about how much the city stalled on the DRL, which is part of the problem.

Though it would be nice to see York Region build its own transit ridership (it increased by a pathetic 1.2% in 2017) and better fund YRT, instead of just jumping up and down demanding a Yonge Subway. There should be a lot better service feeding York Region's existing subway line. What happened to Viva Silver?

Build the DRL phase 1 and upgrade the Richmond Hill Line to electrified all day 2 way every 15 minutes. Make it same price as subway.

Much better solution than this Yonge extension.

 

[raptor]

Build the DRL phase 1 and upgrade the Richmond Hill Line to electrified all day 2 way every 15 minutes. Make it same price as subway.

Much better solution than this Yonge extension.

How will that help those living around Yonge and Steeles?

 

[W. K. Lis]

The politicians who want to extend the Yonge subway should try riding it during rush hour

In both morning and afternoon rush hours. Southbound in the morning and northbound in the afternoon.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Some valid points. I'm not against a Yonge extension either and the demand is there. I'll pull my hair out thinking about how much the city stalled on the DRL, which is part of the problem.
Though it would be nice to see York Region build its own transit ridership (it increased by a pathetic 1.2% in 2017) and better fund YRT, instead of just jumping up and down demanding a Yonge Subway. There should be a lot better service feeding York Region's existing subway line. What happened to Viva Silver?

Yeah, they've definitely reached a plateau after a pretty impressive, post-amalgamation surge. I think they are trying some good things, like TDM projects, but it's going to be an uphill battle in the sprawly parts. A glass-half-full spin might be that people in Markham Centre and VMC aren't using a lot of YRT because they're taking the subway and/or GO and/or finding themselves in live/work situations... But these are fundamental challenges building transit in suburbs. Most of the Yonge corridor, south of 7, is barely suburban though. I'm concerned about the development applications coming down the pipe, subway or no subway (but especially with no subway, I guess).

Another glass-half-full spin would be hoping that a PC upload of the subway and review of regional governance would lead to fare integration (which would be a boon for YRT's southern service as well as a resolution to the current York U mess) and proper coordination and prioritization of projects. (In theory, it could even lead to YRT being better sync'd with TTC in some fashion and the northern municipalities being put under a different regime. Who knows what Doug Ford et al have in store?!)
I have little faith of any real progress, given who is in charge...but I guess anything is possible. In the meantime, I feel Toronto's pain but just don't see anyway around the reality of north-of-Finch ridership and think if you're down by the lake looking ruefully at the storm coming from the north it helps to understand the bigger picture.

FWIW, I live north of Finch and frequently take the subway when I go downtown. Right now, depending on the weather, timing and other factors I will drive, bike or bus. If there was an extension, I'd get on north of Steeles and save us all some wear and tear on the roads and environment. But make no mistake - I'm taking the subway either way, taking some Toronto taxpayer's seat either way, causing crowding at Bloor either way and you don't want me taking my car instead either way...and there's a lot of me

 

[Edward Skira]

Alternative article:
The downtown-dwelling columnists who write about the extension should come up to Thornhill and Richmond Hill - or even just venture north of Eglinton one time - to see the intensification going on, and wonder what the future holds for the subway and commuting, regardless of whether the line goes north of Finch or not. Just ONE time, Ed.

I'm not saying - and have never said - they're wrong about the crowding. But if Ed Keenan actually walked around the planned Urban Growth Centre with RH's chief planner or something, he might have a better appreciation of the Catch 22 we're stuck in instead of another round of Toronto-centric hand-wringing.

EDIT: I read the article yesterday but just read it again and while I understand the issues, there's still something perverse about him objecting to politicians pushing for subway lines that will attract more riders to the system. It seems like it would be hard to do that while also writing articles about what a white elephant the SSE will be, but again, that's the Catch 22 we're in and saying "the subway is full!" isn't going to help unless you're prepared to enact quotas or check for 905 IDs at Finch Station. People going south live north of the subway terminal; it's just a fact of life.

Your point is ridiculous. How is walking around areas unbuilt make any difference to the reality that stations south of Eglinton are ALREADY full. So we should solve problems that will occur when these areas are built out instead of the problems that already exist? How about we don't build out Yonge and 7 in that case?

I live at Yonge and Finch. I have no issue with it going to 7 or even Major Mac along Yonge. But the crowding issues at the south end have to be dealt with first. When I commuted I often got a seat. But it was sure painful crawling all the way to King because of the overcrowding. It will only get worse if you put more people on it. And this won't be fun for anybody riding the train including those that get a seat at 7.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Alternative article:
The downtown-dwelling columnists who write about the extension should come up to Thornhill and Richmond Hill - or even just venture north of Eglinton one time - to see the intensification going on, and wonder what the future holds for the subway and commuting, regardless of whether the line goes north of Finch or not. Just ONE time, Ed.

I'm not saying - and have never said - they're wrong about the crowding. But if Ed Keenan actually walked around the planned Urban Growth Centre with RH's chief planner or something, he might have a better appreciation of the Catch 22 we're stuck in instead of another round of Toronto-centric hand-wringing.

EDIT: I read the article yesterday but just read it again and while I understand the issues, there's still something perverse about him objecting to politicians pushing for subway lines that will attract more riders to the system. It seems like it would be hard to do that while also writing articles about what a white elephant the SSE will be, but again, that's the Catch 22 we're in and saying "the subway is full!" isn't going to help unless you're prepared to enact quotas or check for 905 IDs at Finch Station. People going south live north of the subway terminal; it's just a fact of life.

Your point is ridiculous. How is walking around areas unbuilt make any difference to the reality that stations south of Eglinton are ALREADY full. So we should solve problems that will occur when these areas are built out instead of the problems that already exist? How about we don't build out Yonge and 7 in that case?

I live at Yonge and Finch. I have no issue with it going to 7 or even Major Mac along Yonge. But the crowding issues at the south end have to be dealt with first. When I commuted I often got a seat. But it was sure painful crawling all the way to King because of the overcrowding. It will only get worse if you put more people on it. And this won't be fun for anybody riding the train including those that got a seat at 7.

I like the post Ed, but let's keep this simple. TJ, this is vote buying exercise. All the suburban subways are vote buying exercises. Because at the end of the day. Those people are going to drive. The GO station, downtown wherever. Look at YRT in its current state and tell me they'll be able to get off peak non drivers to Clark or Langstaff besides VIVA. All this talk about planning and growth and to date YRT has done poorly outside of VIVA expansion. People will use the subway at all hours, and at Vaughan we already see full parking lots and some bus routes ending at 7:30pm. On a workday. Subways require transit oriented communities. YRT has made zero effort to that since Vaughan opened. So it's a vote buying exercise, no different then Scarborough, Sheppard East, Vaughan or any other suburban subway, because some of the people wanting this will still drive and never use it.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Your point is ridiculous. How is walking around areas unbuilt make any difference to the reality that stations south of Eglinton are ALREADY full. So we should solve problems that will occur when these areas are built out instead of the problems that already exist? How about we don't build out Yonge and 7 in that case?

I honestly don't even understand what you think is ridiculous.
-At no point did I say walking around unbuilt areas affects reality. I said it would give Toronto-based reporters knowledge and/or understanding they might otherwise lack. Closing your eyes is no solution to the crowding either. IMHO, it is a failure of journalism to sit downtown and crow about Markham's hubris without providing context and I suggested Keenan is journalist enough to remedy that.

-At no point did I say one should ignore or not deal with the crowding issues. But understanding why they're happening is rather more practical than not building the extension and imagining you're doing anything but forestalling the inevitable. Indeed, that's precisely the thinking (or lack thereof) - not by York Region but by the City of Toronto Council, year after year, term after term - that has lead to the current situation in the first place. They FAILED to anticipate or deal with the increased ridership pressure at the north end of Line 1 and correspondingly FAILED to prioritize or advance or even properly conceive of the DRL until this extension reminded them. And even since then, they've prioritized the SSE and wasted precious years and dollars cancelling EAs, reversing decisions and otherwise failing to confront the problems we both acknowledge exist.

-If we're talking about ridiculous points, York Region refusing to conform to provincial policy is a great start. But, sure, "we" can not build out Yonge/7, by which I mean, York Region (and Markham, Vaughan and Richmond Hill) can turn down development applications and go the LPAT, use Keenan's Star article as evidence and see if it impresses the board members. Nothing easier in the world than stopping high-density development in the GTA these days!

So it's a vote buying exercise, no different then Scarborough, Sheppard East, Vaughan or any other suburban subway, because some of the people wanting this will still drive and never use it.

Unfortunately, this is true of pretty much all our transit planning and I decry it on that level. Without all this, likely Transit city would have been built, and then the DRL and then we could be talking about this extension on its own merits, instead of having another SUBURBS vs. CITY battle royale.

The one caveat that makes it different from some of the other suburban lines is how fundamentally it's related to provincial growth policy. I won't belabour that point except to say the same urbanists who crow about urban sprawl and drivers talk out of the same side of their mouths attacking a "suburban" line that will unquestionably facilitate substantial urbanization, especially in comparison to what would otherwise happen in York Region. The subway to Vaughan might not be perfect but every person living and working in those towers is a person not working in some crappy industrial business park or further out in sprawlville.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

So they have failed - but what you are suggesting is exacerbation to an existing problem. Besides, that failure is not on the city alone - where is provincial leadership on the file? If you can push an extension to 7, you can certainly push an alternate downtown given you are a major funder of the regional system. There is nothing of more regional importance than core area capacity.

As to the complaint about the urbanists - not building a subway line to York Region has limited impact on sprawl - in fact, not providing that direct link might increase development pressure closer to the core - and that is actually an even better outcome than long distance nodal intensification that requires high cost infrastructure to service. Congestion is a lovely self-limiting mechanism.

AoD

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Sure, we can blame the province too, if you like; I'm good with that. Is it the province's fault for not passing Places to Grow, tying infrastructure funding to it, establishing revenue tools, telling Toronto Council to hold the horses on Scarborough and do the DRL first? Sure - it's all of that. It's not one thing.

The fact remains York Region's government is doing what the province told them to do: planning transit-oriented growth centres, planning for the subway etc.

I disagree about the impact of the subway on sprawl given the planning policies and realities in York Region. It's a bit ironic that Markham was one of the first municipalities in this region, if not the continent, to start practicing "smart growth" planning and today they get scolded for trying to bud in line for transportation infrastructure to facilitate decade-old plans, while Toronto coasts on inflation-rate tax increases and spends years reversing its already-sketchy transit plans.

As for congestion being a self-limiting mechanism...well, it's nothing to be proud of. But road congestion is an issue too. As I've said before, I see it as a systemic failure and there is no question getting the DRL built already is a big part of getting back on track (so to speak), I just don't think there's enough self-limitation to keep things at bay. It hasn't been so far, as the 7028 Yonge proposal shows. On the contrary, we're getting development proposals that respond to the intensification policies but without the infrastructure; not as dangerous as too many people bustling on the Yonge/Bloor platform but that's going to hit a breaking point of some kind too.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Sure, we can blame the province too, if you like; I'm good with that. Is it the province's fault for not passing Places to Grow, tying infrastructure funding to it, establishing revenue tools, telling Toronto Council to hold the horses on Scarborough and do the DRL first? Sure - it's all of that. It's not one thing.

The fact remains York Region's government is doing what the province told them to do: planning transit-oriented growth centres, planning for the subway etc.

I disagree about the impact of the subway on sprawl given the planning policies and realities in York Region. It's a bit ironic that Markham was one of the first municipalities in this region, if not the continent, to start practicing "smart growth" planning and today they get scolded for trying to bud in line for transportation infrastructure to facilitate decade-old plans, while Toronto coasts on inflation-rate tax increases and spends years reversing its already-sketchy transit plans.

As for congestion being a self-limiting mechanism...well, it's nothing to be proud of. But road congestion is an issue too. As I've said before, I see it as a systemic failure and there is no question getting the DRL built already is a big part of getting back on track (so to speak), I just don't think there's enough self-limitation to keep things at bay. It hasn't been so far, as the 7028 Yonge proposal shows. On the contrary, we're getting development proposals that respond to the intensification policies but without the infrastructure; not as dangerous as too many people bustling on the Yonge/Bloor platform but that's going to hit a breaking point of some kind too.

Yes, and what's Markham's current modal mix? Built form mix? That tells you all you need to know about those policies and their effectiveness. They sound good on paper and as a soundbite, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

As to these proposals - well, do you think they will sell as well absent the promise of a subway line?

AoD

 

[Streety McCarface]

The major problem is that York Region does not pay a dime into the TTC outside of the farebox. With Vaughan, Torontonians are upset that they are subsidizing minimal riders that don't pay the property taxes necessary to actually fund the system. It also doesn't help that QP always gives Toronto the short end of the stick by fully (or partially, but usually at a greater ration) funding these things within York Region, but not within Toronto.

The seating argument is null in my mind. Every subway system in the world requires its passengers to stand at some point. Sure, it's not fair that Toronto taxpayers are funding York Region Seats, but it's also ludicrous to complain about not having a seat: it's public transport. Sure, I like finding a seat myself, but I understand that there are more people in the system that have longer commutes than I may have on a given day, so I don't really find that to be an issue. I will admit, when I was living near the North York Centre, it was always really satisfying (in a somewhat horrible/hypocritical manner) to get a seat on a northbound Yonge train while York Region commuters had to stand the entire way up to Sheppard Yonge.

We can't argue that we should just shift all people beyond a certain radius of downtown to GO transit because we want to protect our seats. Yes, RLN should be built with or before the Yonge North extension, but we shouldn't dismiss the importance of a future northward extension, and we shouldn't dismiss the needs of those commuters just because we don't want to wait 2 minutes for the next train.